Economy/Sweep Playing and Single Escape

Playing Technique
#1

So I got to thinking, the hardcore sweep/economy guys - do they have a primary escape that they do? It’s hard to tell with Marshall Harrison, but I want to say USX, same as Rick Graham, and Frank Gambale and Brett Garsed. I could be wrong, though.

And for sweep/economy style picking strategies I am thinking that on paper, that should be fine for USX or DSX, but I do have to wonder if either of the escapes is better suited for general all purpose sweep/economy style playing? Or could it be a directional thing? The USX guy will have a proclivity for certain moves sort of thing. Thoughts?

#2

Frank’s bread and butter patterns lean pretty heavily into upstroke sweeps, so I’d say his “home base” is DSX.

Probably barely escaping/playing trapped would work best for an all-purpose economy approach.

Watch Paul Gilbert effortlessly breeze through some economy-picked scales back in the day (only to NEVER do it again haha). You can see he slants a little to compensate for ascending and descending, but the escape must be minimal.

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#3

I would largely agree with this. In practice if you are just doing strict up and down economy picking (acending and descending scales) you really aren’t trying to escape anything, so a neutral zero escape is fine. However if you are mixing it in with other stuff/using as a combination technique, then you will find advantages in adjusting for an escape depending on the line or what you were trying to do.

It also can be a very nuanced technique in a lot of ways and can have very different sound and attack depending on this aspect too. So you could gravitate towards any of them depending on a tonal preference

#4

Did he really never do it again?

Like Jason doing hardcore dsx and never again… Changed to usx n bit of alternate lol

#5

No. He infact states in I believe intense rock that although it can be faster he doesn’t like it as much as alternate picking because it’s not as articulate and alternate picking is plenty fast enough for him.

Bruce Boulliet on the other hand is shown using it in his instructional vid.

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#6

Do you know if he’s changed to usx at all? I got my own bias here lol

#7

He did switch his picking hand technique in the early Racer X days, but that was before that video clip above. In that clip he is playing pretty much how he has for most of his career. Paul is notoriously nearly at a 0 degree starting point. But he probably went from a USX to what he has done for most of his playing career at this point.

Here is a picture from the back of street lethal, and him going into it a little at the end of the video below:

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#8

lol man I wish i could do the three finger trailing edge. Says a lot if he changed tho, I read it hurt his thumb?

Also he metions how he was influenced by peers, I’ve struggled with that for ages, even the long hair… Short now though… Thanks to gf.

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#9

Yeah. He says that in the “Get Out Of My Yard” instructional. But in this interview he mentions it was because it was a lot of effort for him to play that way.

#10

I still think you ain’t a metal guitarist without long hair or a mullet lol

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#11

Well I wouldn’t make that a parameter. There are probably way more important things.

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#12

hardcore bulk n skull

#13

Interesting replies. I am just curious about it because “some” sweepy stuff works out great, and is pretty effortless where other sweepy stuff is a bit of a tangle. Really the original question is more about sorting out what I do and hopefully working around them as opposed to some new magic technique or whatever. Some stuff sweeps/economies very well, and some doesn’t for me and was a bit curious if anyone else noticed this either in themselves or in observations of other players.

lol If i am being honest, I really just can’t pick at all despite my best efforts, so I should really likely just stick to legato/tapping. But, I like that picked sound so I do try to maybe find a way to harness my shortcomings into something useful! :grinning: You know, focus on doing what comes naturally picking-wise, mostly even number of notes per string wherever I can and try and use sweep/hammer/pluck as an escape hatch.

But it would seem those dang sweep/economy escapes seem to come with an annoying umm favoring a direction kind of situation…

#14

My own economy picking tends to be trapped when ascending or using consecutive downstroke sweeps, but when descending my downstrokes escape.

#15

It all largely depends on what you were trying to do or play or how you adapt the technique. It probably doesn’t have to be the case depending on what you were trying to play. Do you have anything in particular in mind? Phrase or general concept? Or are you just plotting?

#16

Ahh yes, there are a few phrases that come up. Some are successful, some aren’t so great lol

This guy for instance should supposedly work marvelously for me, but ummm it’s really been a bit of a grind to get it together, and quite honestly I am done with “the grind” hahaha if you know what I mean…

Here’s one I have been working on, and while it works not too bad if I do odd note groupings of 5 (University) rhythmically, it kind of fails a bit at straight 16ths rhythmically speaking. Again, another case where the note groupings seem to take on the rhythmic characteristics of the amount of notes in said group. Certainly open to ides. Anyways, I am pronated and DSX with a tendancy to sound like dogshit lol

U D U D U U D U D
------------------------------12--------------------12----14-----
----------------12----15------------12----14--------------------
—12—15--------------------------------------------------------

#17

I don’t find that tbh. It took me a while, but you can do most string changes without having to make big adjustments to your form. If your form is favouring one direction over the other, it may not work to change direction in the middle of a lick.

It does help to experiment with grip. For me, my thumb is sort of flat for ascending sweeps, and wrapped a little for descending. Frank Gambale does this. Watch his thumb when playing, it’s very active!

#18

Yeah, Frank is awesome! No doubt, he has it so dialled in as does Marshall Harrison. Killer.

I think I solved my Pentatonic “Adam P” style 2nps 5’s sequence thing by relaxing a bit, and employing a rotation on the sweep portion. Here is where I am at with it (Yes, I know - not CTC standard of picking, but it is what it is!) Any thoughts? And yes, I am acutely aware that it doesn’t line up with the metronome click lol that’s a major source of my annoyance hahaha Metronome is just a reference I guess…

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#19

Okay so If I get your drift a bit regarding the note division. Yes, doing economy segments like that one will naturally want to lock into specific note groupings because it tends to be a more fluid technique in that regard. If you have that 5 note pattern repeating pattern, it will naturally want to group the note segments into a grouping of 5 per beat. It would be hard to take that same phrase and emphasize every grouping of 4. Not impossible, but would be difficult for the same reason alternate picking is harder to do emphasizing odd note grouping to each beat. Your ear may also be driven into hearing it in segments of 5 which adds to it all.

You also look like you are putting a bit too much effort into it, I can tell because you are really picking by where those string exit the bridge and it doesn’t look that comfortable.

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#20

Are you purposefully not doing any hammer ons?

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