Edge picking and pickslanting, how should I approach this issue?

[AGTG]

This is in consideration of three note per string scales. Also, I’m no virtuoso like a lot of you guys are. My speed and accuracy is in the developing stage. Basically, my attempt with the CTC stuff is to rework my whole right hand technique to accommodate the kind of deft and swift technique I’d like to have.

I am pretty comfortable doing the leading edge picking with downward slanting on ascending runs, kind of dragging the pick along getting to the next string as quickly as possible Even in just a couple weeks of practicing like this my speed and accuracy has increased a good bit, but when I attempt to descend back down things get really choppy and weird.

I’ve tried to force an upward pickslant on the descent to emulate this dragging in reverse, but it feels awkward and doesn’t seem to be helping with speed or fluidity.

I am kind of inclined to drag the rear edge of the pick in a straight (not slanted) manner, but that seems to require a very light touch I will need to develop in order to make it fast and fluid.

Any advice?

[Troy]

The pickslant depends on the string change, not the “direction” of a lick. You can have a lick which moves in both directions but uses only a single pickslant. And you can have a lick which moves only in one direction that uses both pickslants.

I recommend getting fluid with any one way pickslanting style, either dwps or uwps, depending on your arm setup. If you’re a very supinated player, try dwps first. If you’re pronated try uwps. If you’re lightly supinated (what some people think of as “neutral”) you can try either way. Your choice of picking motion will flow from your setup.

Shoot for a non-stringhopping movement with smoothness at medium speeds - not super robot slow, not super fast. We’re really talking about getting fluid with picking, not so much playing reall fast. Fast is just a test for whether or not we are actually fluid.

[AGTG]

The pickslant depends on the string change, not the “direction” of a lick. You can have a lick which moves in both directions but uses only a single pickslant. And you can have a lick which moves only in one direction that uses both pickslants.

I recommend getting fluid with any one way pickslanting style, either dwps or uwps, depending on your arm setup. If you’re a very supinated player, try dwps first. If you’re pronated try uwps. If you’re lightly supinated (what some people think of as “neutral”) you can try either way. Your choice of picking motion will flow from your setup.

Shoot for a non-stringhopping movement with smoothness at medium speeds - not super robot slow, not super fast. We’re really talking about getting fluid with picking, not so much playing reall fast. Fast is just a test for whether or not we are actually fluid.

Ok, but I think I’m definitely missing something with the dwps on the descent. Mind you, I’m trying to develop this technique while running up and down scales. If I am doing a dwps descending, isn’t the pick coming too far above the plane of the strings, and needs to be brought back down in order to catch the next string?

When I ascend with a dwps, my pick is already in line with the next string, which aids in naturally efficient speed and accuracy. What am I doing wrong on the descent?

[Troy]

Not 100% sure I’m following, but in general, a downward pickslant is required to switch strings after an upsroke, and an upward pickslant is required to switch strings after a downstroke. That’s it - the direction of the lick, or the direction the pick is moving, is irrelevant. The rule is that the pick can only switch strings when it is escaped, above the strings. The pickslant is what does that.

In actual practice, it gets more complicated, because there is the question of precisely when to switch pickslants. This introduces the “primary pickslant” concept which we address in the Antigravity seminar. But in general, players choose a default orientation and often rapidly switch away from that, and back to that, as the string change requires - again, based on the final note on the string.

[AGTG]

Not 100% sure I’m following, but in general, a downward pickslant is required to switch strings after an upsroke, and an upward pickslant is required to switch strings after a downstroke. That’s it - the direction of the lick, or the direction the pick is moving, is irrelevant. The rule is that the pick can only switch strings when it is escaped, above the strings. The pickslant is what does that.

In actual practice, it gets more complicated, because there is the question of precisely when to switch pickslants. This introduces the “primary pickslant” concept which we address in the Antigravity seminar. But in general, players choose a default orientation and often rapidly switch away from that, and back to that, as the string change requires - again, based on the final note on the string.

I see… So these slants seem they are really useful for turnarounds crossing strings. Thanks for clarifying, I should probably get a membership and dig a little deeper.

[Troy]

String-switching is one of the big reasons pickslanting exists. However, it goes beyond this, because the choice of picking motion is innately tied to it. When you see players using wrist motion or elbow or forearm, they are doing this in part because it orients the picking motion for certain kinds of string changes. That influences the kinds of lines they play, which is why you don’t see guys like Eric Johnson playing scales with pure alternate picking - his technique simply doesn’t do that.

We’re in the middle of a big revamp of the Pickslanting Primer, which is a part of the membership, which will lay all this stuff out in very plain detail. Currently, we did a live broadcast for subscribers a few weeks back which lays out the picking motion stuff probably as clearly as we have ever done thus far. The recording of that is also on the platform right now. It’s currently the best starting point for anyone just signing up.

[AGTG]

I’m definitely going to sign up, and I appreciate your time. Let me just ask one question to see if I am understanding the purpose of the pickslant.

We know that an ascending three note per string run lends itself to fluidity because if you start on a downstroke the rest of the notes will fall in line as you proceed as efficiently as possible.

But, for instance, for a scale like the Lydian, when you get to that two note G string portion, you slant your pick downward on your upstroke for the second note to be able to avoid the G as you proceed asap to the B string? Am I understanding correctly?

[Troy]

We know that an ascending three note per string run lends itself to fluidity because if you start on a downstroke the rest of the notes will fall in line as you proceed as efficiently as possible.

No - it’s the opposite. Three note per string scales are inherently challenging because the last pickstroke on every string flip flops, because each string has an odd number of notes. First it’s downstroke, then an upstroke, then a downstroke again. This is why two-way pickslanting becomes necessary, to change the pickslant on each string to handle this.

Two, four, and six-note per string fingerings are easiest because they are one-way pickslanting licks. This is why Yngwie only plays even numbers of notes per string, and not threes at all, when he is alternate picking. Unexpected, but totally true.

At this point I’d recommend watching some of our instructional stuff to get a better handle on pickslanting. Again, we’re in the process of updating our stuff to make this as clear as possible but a lot of this is there in some form already currently.

[AGTG]

We know that an ascending three note per string run lends itself to fluidity because if you start on a downstroke the rest of the notes will fall in line as you proceed as efficiently as possible.

No - it’s the opposite. Three note per string scales are inherently challenging because the last pickstroke on every string flip flops, because each string has an odd number of notes. First it’s downstroke, then an upstroke, then a downstroke again. This is why two-way pickslanting becomes necessary, to change the pickslant on each string to handle this.

Two, four, and six-note per string fingerings are easiest because they are one-way pickslanting licks. This is why Yngwie only plays even numbers of notes per string, and not threes at all, when he is alternate picking. Unexpected, but totally true.

At this point I’d recommend watching some of our instructional stuff to get a better handle on pickslanting. Again, we’re in the process of updating our stuff to make this as clear as possible but a lot of this is there in some form already currently.

Thanks for clarifying this.

[AGTG]

I hate to kick a dead horse on this, because I clearly don’t have a fundamental grasp of how to utilize pickslanting yet. And Troy, you’ve been very patient with me. I appreciate that.

In searching out stuff on youtube, some dood suggested that the key to speed for three note per string scales is in making the third downstroke in an ascending scale an immediate play through to the first downstroke on the next string.

This makes sense to me, as the quickest route between two points is a straight line. It even helped me develop some speed almost immediately upon application, but clearly I am confused. I’m self-taught so I don’t want to blame said youtube dood, as there are many doods on youtube and some are admittedly better than others.

Are there any legit players who do this picking playthrough on three note per string scales, or is this just faulty technical advice? Obviously, pickslanting must be more efficient, and I will carefully examine the CTC vids to try and wrap my head around it.

Ultimately, as you develop your platform for teaching, one of the things that might be helpful would be tablature for riffs with notation on up and downstrokes and even when and where to pickslant just as an exercise to see how this is readily applied. I know a member posted some notation the other day and that was interesting to see.

[Judmeister]

Well that is economy picking which players like Marshall Harrison and Frank Gambale use to great extent but other players blast through three notes per string while using alternate picking with no problems. But even on economy picking there is a point when you will have to alternate pick when you turn it around on the top string if you dont repeat a note or move up to a new scale position when coming down.

[Costanza]

Watch Troy’s video on combining pickslanting and sweeping and I think you’ll have your answer.

[AGTG]

Watch Troy’s video on combining pickslanting and sweeping and I think you’ll have your answer.

Thanks for the tip. Here is the video:
CTC Pickslanting and Sweeping Video

[AGTG]

I am pretty comfortable doing the leading edge picking with downward slanting on ascending runs, kind of dragging the pick along getting to the next string as quickly as possible Even in just a couple weeks of practicing like this my speed and accuracy has increased a good bit, but when I attempt to descend back down things get really choppy and weird.

I really appreciate everyone’s input, and that video Troy did with Marshall Harrison shows exactly what I was talking about in my original post, I just didn’t realize I was sweeping and not straight alternate picking. If you go to the 5 minute and 35 second mark you can see Marshall doing exactly what I was talking about. My ascending is developing much quicker than my descending. And it almost seems like I need a shallower upward pickslant, with a super light touch, in order to begin to generate the kind of speed and fluidity I desire.

At the 5:35 mark of this video:
CTC Pickslannting and Sweeping