"Eye-roller licks" - Does anyone else experience listening fatigue with often repeated patterns?

General Music Discussion
#1

I don’t think there’s a way to put this without sounding snobby- but I’ve developed quite a distaste for certain licks, often that arise from their ease of playability, and consequently, their predictability. Some of these include:

Three note per string scales, but doubling the pattern on each string
Three note per string legato picking the first note on each string
Sweeps that start and end on the same note
The “Yngwie” pattern - 5-2-4-5-4-2

I suppose the distaste I have for these licks is the lack of musicality. Take the 6nps scale run for instance - the scale shape/picking is determining what notes you play, not you. It’s more of a party trick than a musical statement. And these licks are all over the place too - tons of huge metal bands have solos where all the fast parts are exclusively these pattern based licks. Seems like kind of a cop out to me. Once you hear the first few notes, you know exactly where the rest of the line is going, which makes it boring, and less impressive imo.

Don’t get me wrong, a lot of these are great chop builders and have their place in guitar playing. But the more you hear them, the less and less effective they are.

What do you guys think? Do you agree? Or am I a jaded, bitter, guitar snob lol

#2

I know that when I first learn a song, it sounds good to me, but the more I practice it, it loses it’s magic.
For high speed soloing etc, I don’t think I’m quite experienced enough yet to recognize excessive repeated patterns from the music I listen too, Tho I know for a fact I’m sick of the licks my fingers always fall into, but others think they are ok.

Ignorance is bliss I guess?
Do you hate it as much under the influence?

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#3

Haha yeah, probably more so

#4

Hi @mattc_guitar.

I’ve definitely experienced this. I’ve definitely been fatigued by my vocabularly of fast licks and patterns and the generic canon of “shred” (I hate that word) clichés.

I developed a respectable level of speed and technique as a teenager by learning pieces by players like Eric Johnson, Paul Gilbert, Steve Morse, etc. I could play them cleanly at the original tempos. I also practiced licks from instructional videos and magazine articles.

I’ve never been very comfortable copying phrases from pieces verbatim and then playing them in different contexts. As a result, most of my vocabularly of generic (i.e. not song specific) fast licks and patterns came from instructional videos and magazines. In particular, I gravitated naturally to the picking patterns from Paul Gilbert’s Intense Rock 1 & 2 and the legato patterns from Richie Kotzen’s Rock Chops.

I would try to write my own lines and patterns and get them up to the speeds I could play other things. Here and there I would find an idea that was naturally amenable to being played fast. Other ideas were not really amenable to being played fast, but I liked them enough to spend a lot of times practicing them and got some of them up to speed. The process never really worked for me though, I just didn’t understand enough about the engineering that makes certain licks and patterns amenable to being played fast.

I thought at the time that I just didn’t have a high enough standard of technique to make the process work, so I began practicing exercises which were of little value, musically or technically. All those exercises did was make me enjoy practicing less.

After a couple of years, I was so tired of hearing myself play the same stuff. Moreover, I began to notice that other players had developed essentially the same vocabularly of fast licks and patterns in the same way. It was as though the licks and patterns from instructional videos and magazine articles had formed a canon of “shred clichés.” Unlike Paul Gilbert, Richie Kotzen and the other players whose playing had formed the basis of this canon, the imitators (myself very much included) weren’t developing out own vocabularies, our own styles or our own voices.

This also very much contributed to “shred” fatigue and a sense of disillusionment with the electric guitar generally.

So I tried to do without the fast vocabulary I had developed. I worked on my ears, my tone production, my note shaping and my phrasing. I started playing much more acoustic guitar and I tried learning to sing. I am much better for it.

I’ve definitely had this experience also.

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#5

You articulated this “shred vocabulary” much better than me, spot on. Although I’m choosing a different path, trying to invent my own shred vocab, but god knows I could work on my tone and phrasing as well.

It makes me curious to see how this vocabulary evolves, as shred guitar becomes more and more widely available. And I wonder if the masses will feel this fatigue as well, and it will be replaced with a new set of shred licks

#6

Technically advanced + no deep thought = musically empty. The listener’s ear and taste will set what level of thought is deep, maybe. But technique for itself is a rabbit hole. It’s very very important to have (of course not for those who use the instrument differently, all good!) but not the endgame.

And feel matters, where I guess feel is that loose flexing of dynamics, rhythm, etc that make things breathe. To me that’s what makes Eruption still such a great solo, more than a flurry of 32nd notes.

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#7

Well said. I would also like to add, there are some fast lines that have feel and attitude only when played fast. Take the descending legato line in the solo to Afterlife - Avenged Sevenfold, about six bars in. It sounds so cool, yet played slow, it hardly makes any musical sense

#8

I believe that I now have an explicit understanding of what makes licks and patterns amenable to being playing fast, and I’ve been able to begin developing my own vocabulary over the last few years. Without that mecahnical understanding, I think I’d have the same difficulties I had as a teenager.

My feeling is that since I was a teenager, it’s become broader but even less coherent and cohesive.

I’m not really aware of many guitarists who have emerged in the last 15 years with their own distinctive style, their own melodic and harmonic identity and their own vocabulary of fast licks and patterns. Andy Wood and Martin Miller for sure, but I couldn’t name many more. Guthrie Govan’s Erotic Cakes was 15 years ago, and I was aware of him for a few years before that.

I’m not really plugged into the instrumental rock or “shred” scenes much anymore; I’ve mostly just followed the artists who I followed as a teenager. I’m also not into metal very much. In this regard I’m probably speaking from a position of ignorance if I’m honest. I’ll take some recommendations if people have them!

I do think that trying to build a name on technical proficiency would be absolutely ludicrous in 2021. Allan Holdsworth began his solo career nearly 40 years ago and Shawn Lane has been dead for nearly 20 years.

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#9

I think the only reason I might go up to bat and defend the “shred vocabulary,” is a lot of this stuff may or may not be cliche, but is still FUN to play. I don’t think any of us expect to be offered a major label recording contract or anything - I certainly don’t :rofl: - but I do a lot of this stuff when I’m just jamming along to stuff simply because it’s fun to do, sounds cool if maybe a little predictable for the genre, and I’ve made peace with playing mostly for my own enjoyment.

If I’m trying to actually compose something, then yeah, some of this stuff might make an appearance here and there in passing, but it’s not going to be the “hook” of the solo, really, so much as a supporting texture. But when I’m just shredding in my bedroom after a long day of work, well, bring on the cliches. If it’s fun, why NOT do it?

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#10

Yep! My prior answer was too whitewash. Going on reflex can be fun. Even Beethoven had licks. As long as it doesn’t become mindless, all good.

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#11

This.

I have always thought that shredding is way more fun to do than listen to. I’m the sort of idiot that would roll my eyes about a shreddy player and then proceed to try and play said eye-roll inducing licks! Haha!

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#12

I don’t want to say it’s personally an “eye roll” for me, but the Petrucci sixes is something I’ve heard a ton and have played a ton, so I try to avoid writing or playing them much.

#13

I’d like to draw an analogy to food. These licks were incredibly tasty, once, but perhaps you had too many servings in a row… there are only so many times one can eat a dish before getting tired of it. Also, it can get tiring to eat derivatives of a particular dish. Even worse, if somebody can cook a dish effectively, then much of the mystery is gone.

I am careful not to listen to too much shred exactly because it’s something that should only be consumed in modest doses. :rofl:

#14

I think the problem for me at that time was that I just wasn’t having fun anymore.

I cut my teeth on that vocabulary, and I recognize how valuable it has been for me to have developed a strong technical foundation so early in my playing.

At the time, it felt like that vocabulary was emblematic of the feeling that I wasn’t really able to express myself on the instrument. It was a symbol of my general unhappiness in my relationship with the guitar.

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#15

You guys have definitely expressed some valuable upsides to these regurgitated shred licks. I appreciate your opinions and insights!

#16

Because we’re in the same age range, I thought I would drop you some new guys to check out. I’m very much tuned out of music as a whole, as I’m no longer playing out (kids) and do not listen to the radio or spotify. Having said that, there is a huge renaissance in shred, with taste.
I’m sure that there are newer Youtube/Insta kids, but here are some to check out:
Plini - I’ll tell you someday, Pan
Polyphia - Lit, 40oz or Aviator
Owane - Rekt
Nick Johnston - Ghost of the Robot Graveyard
Intervals - Aaron Marshall is a great player. They fired the singer, so there are instrumental versions and vocal versions of their songs. I like ‘Ephemeral’ for his cool use of suspended note phrasing, and his slippery soloing style (I don’t care for the Emo vocal though).

There are a lot of bands that came out of the Djent movements that have stellar guitar players. I’m not a huge fan of the style, but they can play in new and creative ways.

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#17

I feel like dropping a platitude in here. Actually I don’t know if it is a platitude, because taste is subjective and all.

But my theory is that good music strikes the optimal balance between predictable and unpredictable. Too predictable = boring, too unpredictable = doesn’t even sound like music.

The various “eye-roller” licks and patterns mentioned in this thread are just tools to make music, I don’t think they are good or bad in themselves. It is in fact a good challenge to take these patterns and make something original and cool out of them. You can change rhythms, accents, scale shapes etc. etc., and I’m pretty sure many (infinite?) cool variations are just waiting to be discovered.

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#18

Thanks for taking the time to write that, I’ll definitely look into those players.

#19

I have to add Stephen Taranto to this list as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZuWM4QJR4E

#20

Yeah, that’s cool. All these new guys have that same style. I get it conceptually, and can play through it with the time to learn, but my brain does not naturally go there. These younger guys really are taking it to new sounds and directions and I love the energy.

I’ve seen Polyphia three times now and its so great to see the Zoomers just rocking out in a slammed packed club to instrumental guitar music. It’s nuts and wonderful at the same time.