That’s what I think and experience, too.
A couple of weeks ago i took “only” three days off and my top speed sunk when i resumed playing.
However, It takes me a while to warm up, so I wanted to check with others if it’s just me.
Furthermore, I use a different hand position for “normal” tremolo picking and downpicking so I’m not sure that I can do the same warm-up you do; anyway you gave some useful piece of advice.
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I agree with what other members have said about the need to warm up for fast down picking. There’s a big difference (up to 20%) in my down picking top speed once I’m warmed up. I also think the bursting method is very effective with this technique. Kari Hanninen also recommends this method.
Here’s a decent thrash picking lesson by Jamie Humphries I use to warm-up sometimes:
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/25107-cram-session-thrash-metal-rhythms
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A masters in Mechanics with John Browne and Olly Steele from Monuments would be a good place to start on this Troy.
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We need someone like Matt Heafy for an interview. He’s in the US so he would be my first choice for practical reasons of having him come and do an interview.
Other than that, Mick Thomson and Josh Middleton would be among my top choices.
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I’ll try an make a half decent video and post it.
I learned to play master of puppets many many years ago, I don’t remember how long I had to practice to get it right. One thing I can tell is that the challenge isn’t in playing the riff fast enough, the challenge is playing the whole song without having too much fatigue.
Yes, you can build some endurance over time but with a good technique you are more efficient and play with less effort.
For what it’s worth, I’ve just started playing guitar again 3 days ago after several weeks off. And on the top of my head, it’s been probably over a year since I’ve worked on my “endurance”, and yet, I just took the guitar, no warmup and played along to the whole some start to finish. There as a little burn in my foreram, but nothing more. If it was all about endurance I probably would not have been able to do it.
I never would’ve been able to do that before, because I used to pick the strings way too hard. It’s important to practice WHILE PLUGGED IN, with distortion dialed in, and pay attention from the sound coming from the amp. You really don’t need to pick the strings so hard.
The other big secret to play it with less effort is using “string tracking”. I never knew about that until I saw Troy’s video demonstrating it.
Master of Puppets isn’t such a fast riff and because the 6th string is palm muted and the 5th isn’t, it’s easy to assume that the palm should stay firmly planted on the 6th string during the whole riff, however if you do that the wrist has a do a much bigger movement to pick the 5th string and you will quickly burn yourself out.
I really don’t want to come off as arrogant, I’m really an average player and I don’t think there is anything special with the way James downpicks most riffs. IMHO when you know how to downpick you know the technique and it works with every riff. Alternate picking is much more tricky because some riffs will have different patterns. That’s why 99% of the times I’ve downpicked almost everything because I couldn’t be bothered to figure out the alternated picking pattern. I am genuinely more impressed with guys like Dave Mustaine, who will sometimes downpick everything, sometimes alternate, sometimes lead with an upstroke, all depending on the tone and feel that is supposed to fit with the song. I guess it’s only normal as humans to admire and envy people who can do things we are not able to do ourselves.
And one thing most people don’t notice with Metallica is that they play the songs live differently than on the records, they change some riffs and put in some breaks here and there. It’s also a myth that everything is downpicked… it’s all about the tone that is wanted and there is that riff in Master of Puppets, 2nd riff after Kirk’s solo, you can hear that some notes are downpicked and some are alternate picked. We can never know how it was played in the studio but you can see this on live videos,
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Schaffer’s approach is more supinated than Hetfield
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Here we go:
My left hand is holding the phone
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I can currently hit album speed. As far specific mechanics, there’s not much there for me to share. I’m sorry that I’m unable to provide a video. The way I got there was the old-fashioned way. I’m new here and don’t know all of the terminology, so please excuse me if I don’t explain it well. All of my practice drills for this were time based with less emphasis on speed because that will naturally come (you’ll feel it). I found stamina to be the biggest issue with playing fast downstrokes. My routine was something like this:
- Set metronome to 80 BPM
- Play straight downstrokes palm-muted on the low E at one specific subdivision for 60 seconds with a 30 second break in between.
- The subdivisions were broken down as such: 1/8th notes; 1/8th note triplets; and 16th notes. As stated I played each one for 60 seconds
- I’d play a fourth “set” with all three mixed alternating from highest subdivision to lowest every 2 measures, also for 60 seconds.
- Once comfortable at the starting tempo, I’d jack it up by 10 BPM’s (I use the Tempo app on my phone. It has a built in timer as well as being an excellent metronome).
- I also use Anytune Pro and started to play along to Master of Puppets at half-speed in the beginning to gauge my progress. Over about two to three weeks, I was playing it at album speed using the method above. YMMV, but there’s no more gratifying feeling than the first time you play it at 100% speed.
As you pickup the tempo, you’ll automatically improve the economy with which you move your picking arm/forearm, etc… It’s a natural progression.
Note: You will feel tension and fatigue(not pain. Stop if you’re feeling it, without any exceptions. There should be no pain) in your picking forearm and that’s what you need to work through. With patient, methodic practice, you will get there
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I know this is an older post @Troy, but I thought I’d comment on this because I myself have actually played with James Hetfield’s grip over a period of time, and I’m an early Metallica fanatic. (Let me know if there is a more current thread that would be better for this)
What I’m seeing with the gallops in this video you posted, is that he’s using DWPS/USX with heavy rest strokes on every downstroke (of the gallops). Now look at the path of his upstroke when he hits the second note of the gallop vs. the path of his upstroke after he completes the gallop—the plane for the former is much less vertical. When he completes the gallop and starts the next gallop he is doing back-to-back downstrokes, (because that’s the way to connect the gallops) that upstroke is much more vertical to avoid hitting the string. So it seems between the two-downstrokes (last note of gallop 1, and first note of gallop 2) he is lifting off with a more vertical up-stroke, and with his three finger picking/arm supination this seems to be more of a deviation motion. In contrast I feel an index-finger gripped player (trigger or angle pad), applying the same approach with a light to medium supination/DWPS, would use some extension on the more vertical upstroke between the gallops to avoid hitting the string.
Hetfield DWPS gallops - motion closer to extension and flexion, with some deviation mixed in between downstrokes to avoid string contact.
Index-finger grip DWPS gallops (applying similar approach) - motion closer to deviation, with some extension mixed in between downstrokes to avoid string contact.
So they are in a way reversed for both picking grips mechanically speaking if DWPS is used. Now someone of better knowledge can comment if these are efficient movements, or if I’m possibly seeing all this wrong. You have to get around the string somehow if you’ve got back-to-back downstrokes. I’m not sure if this is a true microcosm for how James does his consecutive downstrokes, that is not certain since this could just be for his gallops, but I think it’s applicable.
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You know what? I found that it’s easier for me to play usng upstrokes ))
Though in that case palm muting becomes not so easy
A bump with a slow-motion clip from James Hetfield at a pretty good angle.
Hey all, sorry for bumping an old thread but I didn’t see the point in starting a new one for the same topic.
I’ve been experimenting with downstrokes, single notes and power chords, for a while now and I’m a little confused, well, actually very confused haha.
So while experimenting, I go by feel, most of the time, it feels wrong, then suddenly it feels right for a short period and I’m trying to see what the difference is but I’m not seeing it.
I wonder is my setup and general understanding of how to do fast or even just medium downstrokes a little off…
Just to give a bit of information.
When practicing it with a single power chord. My arm is either lightly, or medium supinated. I’m using, or at least starting with the angle pad grip and trying to do a wrist only motion with no forearm rotation. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don’t. I can’t seem to get it to a point where I can do the smooth motion on command. For me, it’s kind of like when experimenting with an alternate picking motion, where it can feel smooth for a few seconds and then I lose it.
When I do single strings, my arm seems to be less supinated. I wouldn’t say pronated, but less than when doing power chords. I also bend the thumb and index finger a little for that extra scratch and also, for some reason, seems to make it easier for me. However, like when doing just a power chord. I won’t get it first try, or second. It takes time and then I get it working smooth for a short burst and lose it again.
I’ve read all the replies and watched all the videos in this thread. I’ve also watched the Brendon Smalls interview and tried to see what he is doing that maybe I’m not.
Are there specific things that help, similar to the wrist setup checklist in the primer that can help all downstrokes?
So just to recap again on what I THINK I’m doing.
Lightly or medium supinated arm position.
Approach angle is probably a little less than when alternate picking, I am not certain about that.
Angle pad grip (which may morph into something else once the motion feels smooth briefly), wrist only. Now I don’t FEEL the circular movement when I get it to feel smooth briefly. It feels more like deviation, but I know there has to be extension in there or I’d hit the string on the way back (which I do sometimes)
Is there something obvious that I’m just not seeing here? Or is it a similar case when learning a new alternate picking motion practicing it fast and sometimes you get it, briefly, then lose it, and in time, the hit rate of getting it smooth increases?
If you made it this far, thanks for reading!
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Short answer: text descriptions aren’t super useful for giving you advice on your technique. The best course of action is always to post a link to a video clip. I really don’t think it’s wise to speculate as to what anyone is doing, or to provide advice, until you can actually see the technique in question.
Second answer: I think the best way to learn fast downstrokes is by tapping rapidly on the guitar. When you get it right the motion feels light and springy, and goes very fast. You can see some closeup shots of my results in this thread here:
For further questions on this approach, post them in that thread. For more questions about your technique specifically, post a thread in “Technique Critique” and include a link to a video.
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I wanted to post a video here in regards to MoP and downpicking that I thought was interesting, plus some conjecture around it.
John Browne is well known for his downpicking technique and insane accuracy. I’ve seen him mentioned in this thread a few times, and I find this video pretty interesting to dissect since it’s specifically around MoP as a downpicking benchmark.
I may be wrong on this, but when I slow down the video to .75 or .5, it almost looks like he is using different muscle groups for each pick (or close to it). The first two picks look to either be elbow and then wrist, or wrist and then wrist. The note on the A string appears to be played by a forearm motion that kinda “throws” the pick into the A string.
Even if I’m wrong here in my analysis of the video, I’ve been wondering if splitting the downpicking workload like this across multiple muscle groups might be something to try out. I feel like most people can burst downpicking with the same motion at tempo, but their stamina quickly depletes. Maybe this could be solved by switching between these different muscle groups? Kinda like tapping triplets on a table with one finger versus tapping them with three fingers, it’s going to be easier when the workload it split.
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@verst I’m not totally seeing different muscle groups, any particular timestamp? Looks like mostly wrist.
@Pepepicks66 thanks for replying! I’m mainly seeing it during the spider riff at 0:37 - if you look at his arm, there seems to be some movement other than wrist when he hits the higher string that involves the entire arm moving. Too bad the video doesn’t really have a magnet-esque view as I’m sure that would help a ton!
Even if I am analyzing the technique in the video wrong, I am still wondering if splitting downpicks into different muscle groups may be of value.
@verst I’m pretty sure that’s just his palm clearing the bridge for the unmuted strings (I do the same thing and it looks similar) so he needs to pull most of his forearm up.
I’m not sure which muscles you’d split them to, but you could experiment. I mainly play with a ton of downpicking and I ust stick to the same technique for long periods of time (upwards of an hour or 2).
Ok thanks for that.
I will have a look at your table tapping thread and experiment a little and see if I can get it going.
If not, I’ll post a video in the technique critique section.
@Pepepicks66 I think it would look something like this -
I normally play the track up to speed using my wrist, but I won’t lie in that it’s always felt athletic and I struggle to maintain the required fitness needed for thrashy riffs when I have so little time for practice nowadays.
Working on this as an experiment felt pretty good in terms of muscle utilization, but it feels like it will be tricky to level out the picking dynamics. Forearm motion is also completely new to me, so it will probably take some time to get this smooth and close to tempo. Lastly, it will probably also be a trick to think of this as one continuous motion, rather than thinking about each individual motion per pick.
I’ll try grinding it in my free time and report back - if I could get back to being able to play 200+ BPM thrashy riffs without an hour or two of warm up beforehand, that would be a huge win!
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@Verst I think the elbow motion for an accent makes sense, I -think- I do that:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDExWp9HKrk/?igshid=17wt43qqld66m
https://www.instagram.com/p/CK6zgTXgA2o/?igshid=180z0dh1i6ncn
As far as warming up, I feel like it takes me forever anyways lol.
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