Flow pick vs Jazz III XL

Gear
#1

After initially playing with Jazz III XL picks, I found the standard ones slightly too thick (they are 1.4 mm thick) for rhythm guitar playing (a pain since I do a mixture of that and “lead” playing and it isn’t practical to switch pick in the middle of playing) and sort out 1 mm thick variants which are a bit “grippier” (the standard Jazz III XL is okay-ish for this but I think the only actual 1 mm thick version at the time was the Tortex picks which I find too smooth). So I eventually settled on the 1 mm version of the James Hetfield White Fang signature which is a Dunlop Flow pick with a “max grip” surface. Recently, Dunlop brought out signature picks for Mick Thomson which would appear to be more similar as they are 1 mm Jazz III XL picks with a slightly grippier surface than usual. Having tried these out, they seem okay; but I may prefer the James Hetfield White Fang picks that I settled on earlier. I was wondering what the differences are between the Flow and Jazz III XL picks are really? They are a very similar shape and size. Troy discusses the bevelling of the Jazz III picks in a video which is the same as for the larger Jazz III XL picks. How is that different - if at all - for the Flow picks?

There are a few threads on this general topic already; but they’re all quite old and I didn’t think it would be a good idea to resurrect them with my specific questions which are a bit different,

William

#2

They are made of different materials. Ultex vs Nylon. To a point, the ultex being a harder material has a sharper attack. Because of the hardness of the material a 1mm ultex vs a 1mm nylon pick may feel a bit stiffer for the same thickness, and will not wear down as fast.

Nylon is a softer material, and has a slightly softer attack. It also tends to wear faster, but can give the impression of being “cleaner” sounding if that makes sense. The bevels on each are different as well. The flow tend to have a rounder bevel, where as the jazz 3 xl tend to have sharper edge on the thinnest part of the bevel. In each case the bevel sharpness difference becomes less pronounced on both when the pick thickness decresses.

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#3

Just try them all and decide!

Flow comes in multiple thicknesses and several materials (Tortex, Ultem, and a little Delrin), and it seems quite popular, hence it will likely stay in production, so it seems like a great choice.

Flow seems to have slightly broader shoulders around its point hence it likely is more forgiving if it hits too deep with edge picking.

I just randomly switched to 2.0mm Flow in Ultem and used that for years now.

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#4

Yes, the Dunlop Flow James Hetfield White Fang signature pick is made out of Ultex and the the Dunlop Jazz III XL Mick Thomson signature pick is made out of nylon. I think my slight preference for the first is due to the harder material, the actual max grip style surface and some odd scratchy tonal thing that happens with the lower/ wound strings with the second pick (although potentially avoidable by modifying technique a bit). I suppose the last is at least partly material related since it doesn’t happen with other Jazz III XL picks including the standard ones that won’t stay in my fingers for funky rhythm guitar playing.

More generally Flow and Jazz III XL picks can be obtained in a lot of different materials and thicknesses; but there seem to be more options for Flow which is probably why ended up with a Flow pick in my earlier search. I suppose I will have to wait to see if Dunlop eventually bring out a 1 mm Jazz III XL in a harder material as well…

William

#5

I’m unsure, but White Fang looked like Tortex, and Black Fang looked like Ultem.

#6

The product description on various websites says that the White Fang is Ultex. The physical pick I have in my possession doesn’t look or feel anything like similar size (Jazz III XL) Tortex picks that I own. (I don’t have any plans to get the Black Fang picks at all, by the way),

William

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#7

I have a Flow and a Jazz III XL beside me. Both are 0.88 mm Tortex.

Despite being the same gauge and material and being almost exactly the same size, I could easily tell which one I’m using with my eyes closed.

The Flow feels noticeably smoother when picking (less resistance), but the Jazz III XL gives a clearer “spike” in my haptic perception on each note.

I like both but I would probably use them for different things. The softer angle on the Flow seems to help my 902 double-escape technique, but the sharper angle on the Jazz III XL seems to help my faster mixed escape form.

I also feel that there is a noticeable difference in pick attack. I like them both for different things.

In all honesty, I really don’t like either very much for strumming. I much prefer a 0.60 mm Dunlop Nylon for strumming.

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#8

What do you think of the ultex sharp? I have 73mm I think.

@Tom_Gilroy

#9

image
image3018×1324 300 KB

Here is the side-view of three 2.0mm Flow picks.

#10

I don’t think I’ve tried one.

The tip geometry looks pretty good to me, but I don’t love the standard 351 size and shape and I have mixed feelings about Ultex as a material.

I like the standard Ultex Jazz III for some things, but I hated the 2.0mm Ultex Jazz III with a passion. Hated it.

I had some Ultex Flows, the heavier gauges were way too chirpy for me and the lighter gauges were in this weird no man’s land where they felt too rigid for strumming but not rigid enough for most of my picking techniques.

I thought the Petrucci 2mm Flow felt great but I didn’t like the sound. On the other hand, the Petrucci Trinity is one of my absolute favourite picks, and that’s Ultex too.

I tried gluing different picks together like you suggested before. It’s easy enough to switch as you describe, but the resulting pick felt too thick in my grip and I couldn’t get used to the haptic feedback from the pick while playing.

#11

When you no longer need a pick, throw it to the crowd and grab the next! At home, have a basket to throw them into. :slight_smile:

#12

I’m coming in late, but I’ve got a bunch of Flow picks in a lot of variants as well as Ultex Jazz III XL, both standard and Primetone (beveled edge). The Flow has a wider and smoother tip while the Jazz III has a noticeably pointier, narrower and sharper tip. They don’t feel similar to me on the string, that’s for sure.

Currently I’m using the Flow Gloss, which has a very similarly tapered edge to a Big Stubby, but with the Flow shape and Ultex material. It’s ever so slightly narrower than a Big Stubby, and makes it a bit less chirpy but with a more defined attack than the regular Ultex Flow and Flow XL. It’s made from a different material than the Stubby picks (either Lexan or Nylon depending of the model). I’m using it because I really like the regular small size Stubby Jazz and wished for something a bit bigger that didn’t slip as much, but didn’t care too much for the Big Stubby. Absurdly expensive tho’, and I’d prefer a Max Grip surface rather than the concave shape it has, but it works.

Until I get bored of it that is. :sweat_smile:

#13

The Jazz III XL is taller than the Flow. That extra space on the XL makes it easier to change grips during songs and also the extra tallness gives me better leverage for my big ass strings (70 on the low string, 27” scale).

I remember really liking the tip on the Flow but the shortness is not ideal for my technique.

#14

I’ve gone down the rabbit hole on this. I’ve recently invested a few bucks on “high end” picks as well as stock varieties. I was pretty happy with toltex flows, but didn’t love their attack when plugged in. The other flow materials felt too chirpy. I love the material and feel of the EJ Jazz 3, but it’s too small for me. The XLs don’t feel the same. I’ve tried about 10 different “blue chip picks” and Red Bear. They are awesome, and make a big difference. My favorite are the “blue chip” with the grip wholes (feels the most like a large EJ jazz 3,) and the red bear “big jazzer in a medium gauge. Totally worth the price in my opinion. Picture is attached, I included some common picks on the bottom row for comparison. I should add the brown picks are the blue chip picks. Red bears are made of a tortoise shell clone, with an optional speed bevel. The heavier gauges (like the govan model) is chirpy. The speed bevel is awesome. The darker blue flow looking red bear is pretty nice too, it’s a little too big, bigger than a flow. The smaller version (reddish and orange ones top middle row) are too small. Wish they had a mid sized. In short, the $27 to $50 per pick is off putting, but they really are a better product. IMG_1410|375x500

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