Guitar Karaoke? Why?

General Music Discussion
#21

Hey Brendan!

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. If you say that it was just bad timing that you wrote that thing about considering closing this thread directly after I had written the post where I thanked every single person who had posted in this thread and said this has been a cool discussion that I find fascinating, then I believe you. So, fine, it was unfortunate timing.

For the record, I truly appreciate that you didn’t close this thread or merge it. I believe this thread has plenty of unique, original material for it to stand on its own.

I appreciate that you agree the “old man yelling at clouds” added nothing of intellectual value to this. When that happens I believe the best response is no response. I enjoy a robust exchange of ideas - not an exchange of insults. I believe I’ve been polite and fair to everyone on this thread - the people who agreed with me and the people who didn’t.

You’re right. Sometimes my posts have prompted that type of uncharitable, response with no substance to it… However, this thread also prompted several “likes” and I prefer to look at the positives rather than dwell on the negatives. A positive mental attitude is one of the keys to success in life. It’s truly phenomenal what a difference a positive mental attitude makes.

Thanks Brendan! I too enjoy the diversity of perspectives. It’s interesting to find out what sorts of different perspectives different people hold and why. I love it. I try to make sure that I treat people who disagree with me just as politely as everyone else. Here and elsewhere. Drew and I have had some long, in-depth discussions on all sorts of things on this forum - we’ve disagreed almost constantly! We’ve disagreed about whether or to cell phones, or more specifically recording devices should be allowed into the areas when rock concerts are being held we’ve disagreed on whether Queensryche was a progressive metal band, and pretty much everything else. Yet to this day, I consider him one of the best posters here because he always brings an interesting way to back up his argument. @Drew I enjoy our discussions. I’m convinced that one day we’re going to have a discussion where it will turn out we both have the same opinion on something.

Brendan, you say I frame things in a way that seems argumentative but it’s certainly not meant that way. I don’t want to be argumentative. I do however love what Luke Lirot termed “The robust exchange of ideas.” I love arguing in that sense - in the best sense of the word. Two people argue a certain point and at the end of it, by having to support their side of it, they’ve either strengthened their opinion by having to defend it, or, they’ve found that something they once believed to be true isn’t true. The person changed his mind on what he thought regarding a certain issue because of the strength, the logic of the other person’s argument. That’s awesome.

Since being argumentative is a different thing than that, and you say I “frame things in a way that feels more dismissive or argumentative than necessary”, that means I’m going to take a look at how much validity there is to that idea and provided I find some validity to it, I’ll begin the process of working on framing my arguments in a better way. I’m not a professional writer; I never wanted to be one.I never wanted to be anything other than what I am - a musician. I do consider writing to be a serious hobby of mine and I want my writing to be the best it can be. If I can improve the way I frame things so that my point get across to people more effectively, than do you think I’d want to go ahead and improve at that? You bet!

One thing I’ve never had any trouble with is being sincere. People who know me know that I love rock 'n roll to death. When I say I’m passionate about this subject because I want to see good things happen to rock music, I couldn’t mean it any more.

There’s no reason people shouldn’t be able to enjoy karaoke. The concept - a single person performs a song that some well known artist wrote while a recording plays - a recording of everyone else they would need to actually perform a live rendition of the song - is fun. It’s entertaining. It’s my opinion however, and we all have an opinion, that while karaoke is entertainment it is not art. There’s a difference between a karaoke singer who performs a rendition of “Walk This Way” and Steven Tyler himself. Singing “Walk This Way” along to a backing track doesn’t make you a member of a successful rock band. Playing the guitar to “Walk This Way” along to a backing track doesn’t make you Joe Perry. It doesn’t make you a member of a successful rock band. Do any of you find that controversial or insulting? If so, just please tell me what about it is insulting and I’ll re-frame it so that its not insulting.

#22

Inconceivable! :wink:

But, devil’s advocate, what’s the difference between playing “walk this way” in a cover band, and playing the solo to a backing track in your bedroom and sharing it on youtube? To me, it seems the biggest difference is I don’t have space in my studio room for a drum kit, nor do I have a bassist and drummer at my beck and call. Otherwise, it’s just me playing along to other instruments, regardless of if they’re pre-recorded or played live by someone else.

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#23

Honest question here to @Acecrusher. Why have you not tried it yourself? (Assuming you haven’t). How do you know whether or not you would enjoy/benefit from it? I’m assuming you have a band right? (Otherwise I don’t think your posts are making much sense). You could use it to market yourself and your band - I bet if I saw you playing an awesome rendition of a song that I liked and it was clear that you were in a band, I am much more likely to try and get hold of your material or better still, see you live.

It is much better to try something before questioning the reason why (with exception of say, the thought of putting your hand in a blender :face_with_head_bandage::joy:) - it will likely give you all the answers to the questions you never thought of… You never know, one day I might go fishing!

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#24

Thanks for the reply Ace, glad we have no hard feelings here, and I appreciate the willingness to improve how you frame an argument or express an opinion. I think that’s something we can all stand to work on and I’ve observed it myself — one nice thing about the forum is getting more practice, not only writing in general, but learning to write more clearly and empathetically based on how others react. I will shoot you a note in a little bit with some more specific feedback as well.

#25

I realize that you’re specifically asking for insights about the YouTube crowd, but you do know that there are tons of young (and otherwise) rock/metal bands out there grinding through the underground trenches, touring and releasing new music right? Some of them are incredible and are achieving a moderate level of success, despite the lack of mainstream support. I think I could recommend some stuff to you, based on your tastes. Modern rock guitar runs a lot deeper than YouTube!

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#26

I knew at the back of my head there was good reason to avoid this thread… play your gutiars folks, waay too much lip here. No offence but to each his own.

#27

I generally try to make my own backing tracks from scratch, mostly with midi and VST instruments. There are two reasons for that. First of all, I don’t have the time or patience to form a band. I would consider myself borderline a social anxiety patient and I tend to cringe easily. The second reason is that I’m a control freak and I like doing things my way, especially in the song writting process.

Having said all that, I totally understand people that play on backing tracks, because they either can’t or don’t want to find band members. I’ve found out many great players on YouTube that play with backing tracks. One of my absolute favourite guitar players gigs all over USA with backing tracks, his name is Buckethead. This is from a few days ago. The guy is slaying! :slight_smile:

If I ever get good enough to write some worth listening songs I will definitely gig alone or form a band of easy going session players. It may sound like I’m a weird person or something, but I just like working alone. I don’t think that playing over backing tracks is “bad” or that it makes less of a musician. Rock on everyone, with bands or backing tracks!

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#28

In two words: Human interaction.

Ha ha! Drew, you’re the kind of guy I like to have on a forum.

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#29

…you mean, 90% of what’s lacking when you have a conversation about this stuff on the internet? :wink:

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#30

Yeah, basically. This helped me sum up the main point I’ve been trying to get at. @Brendan, I thought of what you said before I wrote this post. I hope you like it better :slight_smile:

When you play onstage in front of a live audience you’re going to learn things that you won’t learn elsewhere. Just playing the right notes isn’t the whole thing, not by a longshot. That’s the reason for the initial question in the title of the thread “Guitar Karoake? Why” as in: Why would you go about trying to build your career this way? I want you to succeed and that won’t help you learn the things you’re going to need to get good at in a very competitive business.

Playing in a band for a live audience will give you the opportunity to learn stage presence. That’s crucial, and all the greats have it. You’re going to improve at exuding a certain attitude when you play. Attitude is a huge part of rock 'n roll. Don’t think it isn’t! It’s been that way since the days of Elvis Presley. Keep in mind this was the 1950s and standards were much more conservative then. When he performed he gyrated his hips and there were people that wanted to burn him at the stake for it! It might sound tame now but it wasn’t back then and it was a risk he took. But it got people talking about him didn’t it? You bet it did!

Playing onstage your band will get the opportunity to start creating something unique about your band that gives it its own distinct identity. You want something that sets you apart from the rest of the bands on that bill so that you will be the band people are talking about the rest of the night.

You’re going to get experience at learning to keep the people entertained. Learn to read the audience and know what they want. Maybe this moment isn’t right for the ballad you’d planned to play next. They want to hear something more uptempo right at this moment. So save the ballad for a little later on. The stage is the only place you learn these things.

You want the audience talking about you when they leave the club. “Did you see that band”!!! You want them telling their friends about the great band they saw and for their friends to come out to see you the next time you’re playing.

That’s how every legendary rock band did it, playing show after show, touring relentlessly and in the process becoming better and better so that the people felt they just had to see them the next time they came to their town.

It can be very hard work but it’s the most fun hard work I know of, so don’t forget to have a good time while you’re doing all this. You’re living your life’s dream! The audience will pick up on that. They’ll see your band having a good time and then the next thing you know, the audience is starting to have a good time. That’s the infectious, energetic spirit of rock 'n roll!

#31

A lot of people would argue, why would you not want to make use of the single most significant shift in the way the world communicates, to enhance or start your career?

I totally understand a great deal of the sentiment of your posts, but you also have to remember, not every part of the globe has a thriving music scene to be part of. For some, online is the only consistant way to communicate with like-minded people.

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#32

Okay, I’ll bite on the bait and respond with my own wall of text, since all my friends are jumping off the metaphorical cliff of posting in this thread too and I’m waiting for some code to finish running.

  • Just because some legendary rock bands did it does not mean it’s something you must do or that not doing it makes you a lesser musician.

  • The 80s were not the be-all and end-all of music. 80s rock is not the be-all and end-all of music. Western music in a recognizable form has been around for hundreds of years, and humans have been playing music in various ways since before we invented writing, AFAIK.

  • Not everyone is trying to play “infectious, energetic rock’n’roll,” even those that are trying to make a career out of their music. This site is relevant to pretty much anyone trying to play guitar with a pick, and some other instruments besides (e.g., mandolin). This means jazz, blues, weird avant-garde shit, prog rock, you name it. Jazz and blues in particular didn’t start as “music you play on a stage” AFAIK. Jazz was music that musicians played together for the hell of it.

  • Not everyone has the opportunity or ability to join/start a band, even those that are trying to become “successful” (whatever the hell that means, although I’ll take it to mean “making some money from your craft”) as musicians.

  • The “getting up on a stage at local clubs constantly” method of becoming a professional rocker isn’t what you see even the bigger newcomer metal bands doing these days. Many of them made their start as Youtube stars and forum-posters (including some of the big shredders – see Tosin Abasi, who plays some of the freshest and most interesting guitar music in the last 15 years). It’s about social media these days. Why must everything be done exactly like big-name bands from 30 years ago did it to be worthwhile?

  • What it means to say the phrase “making music” fundamentally changed when home recording became not only possible, but cheap and (relatively) easy. Go check out Stephen Tarantino’s new album if you need convincing. The guy is absolutely killing it and I don’t think (?) that he has a band at all.

  • Social media is human interaction, for christ’s sake! What do you guys think we’re doing here in this thread, responding to posts made by robots? Have you ever read the Youtube or Instagram comments on some guitar cover video? There’s a lot of interaction between musician and audience there.

Drew hit the nail on the head: let people enjoy things. Right now it seems to me that we’re leaning towards falling into the trap of talking shit about someone’s haircut when there might be something to learn from them.

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#33

Some? Name the legendary rock bands that didn’t do it that way - developing their abilities onstage by relentlessly playing live show after live show whenever they had the opportunity to do so and then by touring. Stages were the learning grounds for all the legendary rock bands.

I don’t mention the 1980s in my previous post at all. I didn’t mention the 80s or anyone who was famous in the 80s in my OP either for that matter, so where did that remark come from?

I specifically mentioned Elvis and specifically what he did in the 1950s. Did you meant to type “50s” instead of 80s? I mentioned Elvis because many regard him as the innovator of rock 'n roll and he certainly takes some of the credit for innovating the rock 'n roll attitude. Perhaps the most famous example of that is the attitude he exuded onstage by way of gyrating his hips during his performances. What he did seems tame by today’s standards but at the time it certainly wasn’t. It was seen as rebellious and sexually provocative enough that it caused quite an uproar. Some people hated it and some loved it. Come to think of it, that’s somewhat reminiscent of the year and a half or so that I’ve been a member of this forum. Ha!

KISS has often said, “Love us, hate us, just talk about us.” I must have rock 'n roll in my DNA considering that love/hate/just talk about me reaction is reminiscent of the reactions I’ve gotten from people my whole life. It’s not an attempt to be that way. Just the thought of “trying to be controversial” is a turn-off to me. I would think it would feel very phony, very contrived. I’m just extremely passionate about rock music. I couldn’t take the rock 'n roll spirit out of my soul any more than I could stop a swallow from migrating or a salmon from spawning.

When I’m posting in this forum I’m making a deliberate attempt to improve at framing things in a way that feels more generous than critical. In the past sometimes my passion has been misconstrued as anger and it’s unfortunate that some interpreted it that way. So now I’m trying to take special measures to keep that from happening in the future. It’s a work in progress but the trend is upwards. What I am now trying to accomplish, and it’s best exemplified in my previous post in this thread, is to try my best to frame the way I write things in a way that feels more generous than critical. Thank you @Brendan. I do that to help maintain a positive vibe on this forum and to better accomplish getting across the point of what it is I write. In this thread, my purpose is to inspire.

I sort of went down a “rabbit hole” there, didn’t I? OK, back to the subject at hand:

Successful rock bands have devised all sorts of ways of putting on a show for the audience. The music is there; that’s a given. But there’s a reason it’s called playing a “show.” It’s by playing in front of a live audience at rock clubs whenever possible that young bands learn how to put on an exciting, memorable show for the audience - something that makes them want to come back again and again. If all their fans cared about was hearing their songs, they could save a lot of money by staying at home and just listening to that band’s albums there, couldn’t they?

Those stages are where they developed their stage presence, their swagger, their mystique, everything that made seeing them an exciting, memorable experience. Don’t kid yourself into thinking those elements aren’t important. They’re crucial. They embody the rock 'n roll spirit.

This thread is clearly directed at those who do aspire to dedicate their lives to careers as rock musicians. Of course I realize that not everybody on this forum has a career goal off being a rock musician. That’s fine. If a post doesn’t apply to any of my interests, I stop reading it as soon as I find that out. I certainly don’t respond and complain that somebody wrote a post that isn’t relevant to me. There aren’t many posts on this forum that are vitally important or necessarily even very relevant to every single member of this forum, are there? It’s a wide spectrum of people with different goals and aspirations.

For those who have these goals and that got something out of it, I’m glad. It made the effort I put in worthwhile :slight_smile: .

For everyone who participated, thank you! Whether it directly applied to your goals as a musician or not, you were interested enough to participate in the discussion. It’s that “robust exchange of ideas” as Luke Lirot once put it that I thoroughly enjoy. That intellectual substance at the heart of a spirited discussion or debate inspires us all to take a look at our own beliefs, at the beliefs of our peers and fellow musicians, and in doing so gives us a better understanding of where they’re coming from and why they feel the way they do as well as giving us a chance to take a look at our own beliefs and decide if maybe we’ve learned something about ourselves and our way of thinking that we weren’t conscious of previously.

The result is we all gain a better understanding of what we believe, what our fellow forum members and human beings overall believe, and why we all think the way we do. It’s a great learning opportunity to better understand other people’s beliefs, making us capable of being more empathetic people.

#34

I’m leery of any “one size fits all” solution, like you HAVE to hone your abilities on stage. But, as you’re clearly a fan of 80s rock, a lot of prominent 80s shredders seemed to emerge on the scene fairly fully formed - Steve Vai was a music student when Zappa picked him up, Gilbert was just some guy who sent Mike Varney a tape, I think Jason Becker was another Varney find… Hell, a ton of those early Shrapnel guys just sent in demo tapes and that was how they got their break. That might have been the first point in guitar history where someone was interested in signing guys who HADN’T worked their way up to fame through the club scene.

On the flip side, when you see a guy shredding up a storm to a backing track on Youtube, you don’t know for a fact they aren’t ALSO gigging and spending a lot of time on stage. Its just if you want an audience, you’re going to get more traction sharing covers than your original material, even if you’re at a poing where you CAN record good quality live video. “Technical Difficulties guitar cover” is going to get a lot more Youtube hits than “Drew Peterson Letting Go Live Performance,” no matter how you dice it.

So, I don’t think you can argue you HAVE to play live to “develop abilities,” but at the same time I don’t think you can argue people covering songs playing to backing tracks AREN’T playing out, too. We just don’t know what else they’re doing.

Which brings me back to my original point - it’s a LOT easier to get a backing track playing in your room in front of a camera than it is to squeeze a rock band playing full blast into that same room, which is I think the MAIN reason you see it so much more.

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#35

I just noticed this… Either you or I misunderstood Drew’s point about the human interaction and how far a conversation on the internet falls short (90%) of a face to face conversation. Here it is:

#36

Actually, it wasn’t that, it was the cartoon - “Shhh… Let people enjoy things.”

#37

So what is the 90% referring to? I took it to mean 90% of the information you get in a face to face conversation is lost on a forum on the internet like this because it’s reduced to words in back and white. We lose all non-verbal cues, which experts estimate make up 90% of the information we send when speaking to someone in person.

Regarding the cartoon, even if I wanted to (which I don’t ) I have no power over allowing people to enjoy things. I can’t make them do anything. I can’t make them read my posts and I can’t make them reply to them either. We’re here to share or exchange ideas, right? I can’t make them agree with my ideas I can’t make them like my ideas either but until I post them I don’t know who will like my ideas and who won’t. Sometimes I get surprised. We disagree often but I always enjoy the discussions and debates because they’ve got substance to them!

#38

Why would you make me go Google that? You tease. :frowning:

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#39

It was a joke, lol. No more no less.

The point of the cartoon and of letting people enjoy things was the second guy was telling the first that it’s ok for them to enjoy something that you don’t understand or don’t yourself like, and that it’s not something to complain about.

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#40

:rofl: To be honest I’ve been jamming on my backing track for that a lot lately and toying with recording a version, but it clearly isn’t going to be live on stage, and instead shot in my studio room.

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