Guitar Scales, Modes, and Improvising Strategy

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Hey everyone!

I will try to make my question(s) as clear as I can. Theory and its application can be difficult as there are many schools of thought and no “one way” to approach soloing, etc.

BACKGROUND- So I have been working on my 3NPS patterns and have several musician friends that are of 2 camps of thought-

1. Learn your 3NPS scales/modes- all 7 of them inside and out cold. Once you have that down, know your root notes cold too. With that knowledge in hand whatever backing track you are playing over, you can plug and play those scales in over the harmony. So if you have a C Lydian backing track, find your C notes, plug in the Lydian pattern, and voila. I know I am simplifying but that is the gist of it.
2. Don’t be too concerned about scale patterns in the sense of- if I play the Ionian scale on the root, then its Ionian. If I start on the 2nd note, it is now Dorian. Therefore the shape is not as important as you may think it is. The greater concern is being sensitive to the harmony of your song.
3. At this point in my scale knowledge and implementation, I break up 3NPS scales into 3 fragments (2 strings per fragment (357 357 is one, 457 457 is two, and 578 578 is three if we are using G major as our starting point) and can build those fragments anywhere on the guitar knowing where my root notes are. Steve Gilson on YT has a great demonstration of this. I don’t think yet in terms of the modal names, but focus on the root notes and can build my scales around them wherever I am at on the fret board.

Now both these camps are lifelong musicians one of which graduated with honors from Berklee and is a live performer himself. So I must give respect where respect is due and analyze all approaches with equal weight.

My questions with all this being said are:

1. When soloing over a particular mode you must be sensitive to the harmony. Meaning, F Lydian is a mode of C major. However, a C major backing track and an F Lydian backing track sound very different. Both scale shapes are the same on the fret board, same exact notes in the scale, but the harmony is different. So when you are soloing, do you think of the parent scale to find your patterns on the guitar? What is your personal visualization technique for hitting the right notes? For me to think F Lydian to E Phrygian, OK now to D Dorian, and the parent is C major seems cumbersome at best.
2. I find it somewhat easy now to be playing a pentatonic position and look to my left and to my right of it and feel good with my relative positions. My solos don’t sound as smooth as I want lol but I can navigate horizontally. The issue at the moment is to do the same thing with our pentatonic scales and to implement this with the modes.
3. Let’s say we are playing in A minor, ala Mr. Wylde’s favorite key A minor and C major share the same notes, but our starting and stopping points are different. Using A minor, how do you visualize building the scales to the left and to the right of 578 578 on the low E string? My thought is to visualize C major and try to play with an A root focus. Probably wrong but best ATM.

Thank you for reading this and look forward to any replies- Bullseye.

[ChrisX]

When soloing over a particular mode you must be sensitive to the harmony. Meaning, F Lydian is a mode of C major.

The notes are the same, but how the phrases are constructed will be different.

An important thing I stress is learning the arpeggios related to any scale fingering you learn.

In the case of the 3nps “modal” patterns, the 7th arepeggios 1-3-5-7 are 2-1-2 nps patterns, and are worth practicing if you are soloing within the modal forms.

If you are using caged forms, the arpeggios typically follow cord shapes you are already familiar with. Sweep arpeggios are usually based on CAGED forms, while scalar runs are often based on “modal” 3nps shapes because they make transposing between modes very easy and facilitate faster playing.

However if you restrict your playing to only arpeggios (only play the 1-3-5-7 scale degrees) while improvising, the tonality of each mode becomes obvious. For instance an F-Lydian phrase (based on Fmaj7) can be used over Cmaj.

Because you are only making phrases from the 1-3-5-7 scale degrees, it will have a different identity or sound than phrases based on C major’s 1-3-5-7. OTH, If you are playing every note in the scale form, they will sound more alike, because they ARE alike. The only difference is where you start and stop your runs.

You have too many questions to answer, probably best to keep plugging your instructor friends.

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Thank you @ChrisX! I’ve actually never worked on arpeggios before to practice. Do you have any videos, websites, etc. that you recommend I learn this from?

Yes I did ask a lot of questions lol but after rereading my OP, the million dollar question would be the following:

When playing over an E Phrygian backing track which is a mode of C major, in terms of SCALE PATTERNS, do you think C major in terms of the layout of the scales? Meaning when looking at the fret board what root notes are you focused on? Do you “see” C major and focus on the E notes?

Looking forward to any follow up and have a great week- Bullseye

[Ian]

For E phrygian you’re thinking in E. Look at it as playing E minor but with an F instead of a F#. It’s that F (b2) that gives phrygian the “Spanish” sound, which makes it a great passing tone. A cool thing about phrygian is that it can played over a major or minor root chord. Try it over an Am-G-F-E progression or an Andalusian cadence - Am-G-F-E7b9.

[dasein]

I’m going to break down your questions bit by bit and answer as best I can:

@BullseyeBrewtality

When soloing over a particular mode you must be sensitive to the harmony.

100% correct, and something that isn’t emphasized enough.

@BullseyeBrewtality

Meaning, F Lydian is a mode of C major. However, a C major backing track and an F Lydian backing track sound very different. Both scale shapes are the same on the fret board, same exact notes in the scale, but the harmony is different.

Also 100% correct.

In fact, I would try to de-couple the shapes from the modes as much as possible in your head. In reality, that’s pretty hard to do. But it’s extremely important to realize that, if you’re playing over an F lydian progression, and you happen to be playing a scale shape that starts on the 5th fret of the E string, you are not playing A aeolian, you are playing F lydian. You’re playing an F lydian scale that just happens to start on A in that position.

@BullseyeBrewtality

So when you are soloing, do you think of the parent scale to find your patterns on the guitar? What is your personal visualization technique for hitting the right notes? For me to think F Lydian to E Phrygian, OK now to D Dorian, and the parent is C major seems cumbersome at best.

There’s no right answer to this, and there are advantages and drawbacks to each approach.

In honor of Mick Goodrick, I will call them the derivative and parallel approaches.

Derivative: Thinking in terms of a “parent” key, ie, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, etc. all belong to the parent key of C ionian (major).

It requires more mental calculation, but less memorization. You have to calculate the parent key for each mode you play (“OK, it’s F lydian, lydian is the fourth degree of major, F is the 4th of C, so the parent key is C major”).

The advantage is that if you know all the shapes for C major, you can easily all over the neck for all modes of C major. The disadvantage is that it requires a bit of thought to find that parent key. But with practice, that calculation becomes very fast.

Parallel: In this way, you’re thinking of each scale as its own unique entity. There are a couple ways to do this, the most common being thinking of a scale in relative terms to a major scale (“D dorian is a D major scale with a b3 and a b7, or a D minor scale with a natural 6th”).

This way requires less calculation, and more memorization. There’s no calculating a parent key, but it does require you to memorize the scale shapes for each individual mode. That’s a lot more work.

In practice, I would suggest that these two approaches are not mutually exclusive.

Let’s take your F lydian backing track example. If the entire song is in F lydian, then we don’t have to worry about key changes. The derivative approach is not too bad here, because we only need to make that parent key calculation once.

OK, so we know that we can use the same shapes as C major. Is there a way we can emphasize the unique lydian-ness?

Let’s take that scale shape on the 5th fret of the E string (A aeolian, if you’re thinking of mode shapes). Instead of starting phrases on A, try starting and ending phrases on F. Then try emphasizing the corresponding 7th chord arpeggio, Fmaj7 (as ChrisX suggested). With a little bit of time and practice, you start to see – and more importantly, hear – the characteristic lydian bits even in an “Aeolian scale shape.”

The reality is that you will often have to find different improvisational strategies depending on the tune. The approaches you’re describing are very modal-centric, but they would probably not be the best for bebop tunes, anything with fast moving chord changes (good luck trying to play “Giant Steps” or “Moment’s Notice” thinking about modes), or even a blues.

@BullseyeBrewtality

• I find it somewhat easy now to be playing a pentatonic position and look to my left and to my right of it and feel good with my relative positions. My solos don’t sound as smooth as I want lol but I can navigate horizontally. The issue at the moment is to do the same thing with our pentatonic scales and to implement this with the modes.

Remember that a pentatonic scale is just a major scale with two notes missing. Good ol’ A minor pentatonic is A aeolian scale without the F and the B. If you’re feeling more comfortable with pentatonics, why not see if you can solidify the connection between them and their corresponding major scale modes.

@BullseyeBrewtality

Let’s say we are playing in A minor, ala Mr. Wylde’s favorite key A minor and C major share the same notes, but our starting and stopping points are different. Using A minor, how do you visualize building the scales to the left and to the right of 578 578 on the low E string? My thought is to visualize C major and try to play with an A root focus. Probably wrong but best ATM.

I hope I’ve answered this question by now, but I’d also like to suggest one final approach: try playing scales and modes on just one string. This is a great way to get out of pattern based thinking, to hear better, to force yourself to slow down and play more melodically, and to get a better sense of the fretboard.

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Thank you @Ian for your reply! I’ll ask the same question I asked Chris as I love to understand other players thought processes- In this case how are you practically mapping out the scales on the fret board in your head? Do you look for the E notes and play the Phrygian pattern? Do you keep the parent scale in your head but make sure to accent and use that F note accordingly? Looking forward to your answer

[BullseyeBrewtality]

I was not expecting such an answer @dasein, man thank you! I’m pretty useless at doing the cool quote and answer thing you did so I will try and summarize my response to all the points as best as I can:

One thing I struggled with for a long time conceptually was thinking that the particular modal scale pattern you are playing sets the mood. Now to a degree certain notes you accent will add color and flavor but it is the harmony that is key (no pun intended). With that being said, personally, again just personally, the Derivative approach makes the most sense. The kicker like you said is quickly going through the modes in your head to get to the parent scale. I assume also, you must still be able to accent the right notes and know how to do so tastefully? Yes, a G major versus E minor backing track with the same Ionian pattern will sound different, but what notes to play to add a certain color is on you as the artist?

I need to read your answer a few times to really absorb it all but I wanted to reply at first chance.

Best- Bullseye

[Ian]

I look at the 7 patterns as just that - patterns. Mentally I don’t assign any scale or mode to them. I practice the patterns forwards and backwards so that whatever pattern follows or proceeds another is almost instinctual.

Then when practicing a scale or mode I’ll start with 2 main patterns, one pattern where the root is on the 6th string and one where it’s on the 5th. Those are the positions your hand is going to be most of the time when playing the chords so it’s a good place to start. If you have the patterns down cold your fingers will know where to go so you can concentrate on the chord or melody line tones. It’s kind of like a combination of the derivative and parallel approaches that @dasein described.

E phrygian root on 6th:

Root on 5th:

Having a little connector pattern like the one below is nice for position shifts.

and here are a couple of phrygian licks:

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Thank you for the follow up! Now when you started learning patterns did you learn CAGED or 3NPS patterns? It appears you subscribe to the 3NPS scales. You said the patterns are instinctual at this point (jealous lol).

So let’s say you start with the 2nd E Phrygian pattern in your reply starting on the Low E (0 1 3 5 etc.), to play the next pattern how do you know what follows? Meaning if you had to breakdown your thought process, are you thinking OK the previous pattern was Lydian, next is Mixolydian? Or do you not use names and visually build the next pattern by using the root notes as home base if you will? I ask the last question because even if you know the shapes, you must know the parent scale root notes or the root note for the individual pattern, right?

Apologies if my questions are elementary, I just want to get this down already Bullseye

[Ian]

I learned the patterns the old GIT way (see scans below). So if I start with that 2nd Phrygian pattern above to me that’s pattern IV and if I move up the neck it’s pattern V and so on, no thinking involved.

you must know the parent scale root notes or the root note for the individual pattern, right?

Kinda, but not really. I don’t like to assign root notes to patterns or give them names like Phrygian or Lydian because it’s too confusing. Every pattern has all the modes in it. Like if you’re playing the “Ionian” pattern but make the the second note the root it’s Dorian. Or playing major starting on the A string is the “Mixolydian” pattern. Thinking that way makes my brain hurt.

So for me it’s easier to think “if I take this pattern and make this the root, it’ll be that mode”. Like with pattern III starting on the low E for an example. If I target C as the root, it’s C major. If I target E it’s E Phrygian. This is why it’s also important to know where all the notes are all over the fretboard.

I like to warmup starting with a random pattern on the 5th or 6th fret. Play the patterns in order up the fretboard, down to the nut, and then back to the start. Then do a quick exercise of finding where a couple of notes are everywhere on the fretboard.

Here are some old GIT scale printouts. I have some others if anyone is interested. P.s. the G Aeolian on page 3 is incorrect.

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Thx @Ian! That was one concept that threw me for a loop for a while- each scale shape has every mode in it depending on what your root note is. It sounds simple but a lot of us guitarists have issues with basic theory. Very cool you touched upon that point and I hope everyone who reads this benefits even from this one statement!

3 main questions from your reply (and awesome diagrams upload BTW):

1. If you follow the patterns going up and down the fret board and you know them cold then you can plug and play similar to the ideas @dasein mentioned earlier. Now if you personally don’t like to assign root notes to the pattern and we are in the key of E minor for instance, how do you stay in key? For example, let’s say you are noodling around the 5th to 7th fret area and decide to hit some high notes up around that 12th fret to 17th fret area. I know we have our classic pentatonic box 12 15 etc. but if you wanted to apply one of your diatonic patterns, how do you do so at the drop of a dime? Meaning, you wont be counting in your head “OK I’m noodling currently with pattern 3 then move up to 4 then 5.” You just do it like Nike. How are you able to accomplish this when soloing? Is this a case where the root notes come into play?

2. Apologies for confusion on your specific modes diagram example. I’m looking at Pattern III which says A Phrygian. Now did you mean if you start on the E it is E phrygian and if you start on the C note it is C major?

3. Once you learn the seven 3NPS patterns down cold, Ionian to Locrian (with a grain of salt on the names ), how do you recommend using those patterns to stay in key and apply them with no thinking involved as you say?

Have a good evening! Bullseye

[Ian]

These are all good questions so let’s break these suckers down!
1- It’s practice! Lots and lots of practice E minor is a great example and an excellent place to start. Let’s start by learning it in two positions. First is with root on the low E. That would be pattern VI (Aeolian):

Next position is with the root on the A string. A shortcut to find the pattern is to add 4 to the low E pattern. In this example that would be 7-1-2-3 - the 3rd pattern.

@BullseyeBrewtality

if you wanted to apply one of your diatonic patterns, how do you do so at the drop of a dime? Meaning, you wont be counting in your head “OK I’m noodling currently with pattern 3 then move up to 4 then 5.”

At first that’s what you’ll be doing. With those two starting positions you’ve got frets 1-3 and 7-15 covered. Dip down to pattern II in the fifth position and that’s pretty much the whole fretboard.

2- If you make the first note of pattern III an E it will be E Phrygian.

3- If you have the patterns down cold you’re always in key. Keeping with E minor if you’re playing at the 7th fret you’ll be using pattern III, if you move up one fret then you’ll use pattern IV. All of the notes are in key but you want to concentrate landing on the chord tones - E, G, B, D. This where lots of practice comes in.

[BullseyeBrewtality]

E minor is a great key, heck its worked for Metallica for 30+ years now

You mentioned in the beginning of your first reply that you don’t think in terms of modal names but “if I take this pattern and make this the root, it’ll be that mode.” My confusion is while each pattern has all the modes, depending on WHICH pattern we use and which note we designate as its root note will give us a different mode and possibly key. Meaning, if we take the Ionian pattern #1 (357 357 etc.) and start on G, we have G major/E minor. If we take that same pattern and shift it up 2 frets we are in A major, a different KEY altogether. So with that being said, how do you know to stay in key? If you plug and play the Phrygian pattern/shape #3 with G as the root you are playing in D# major I believe, which is not the key of G major/E minor anymore and of course in rock and metal we generally want to stay in key…

To stay in key, do you start with the first shape and work your way up and down the neck using the first shape (Ionian if you don’t mind for consistency) as your relative base at this point in your soloing? What landmarks are you using to do so?

That’s why I’m curious as to how you are able to visualize playing from low to high on the fret board and stay in key without missing a beat (pun intended).

Thanks a million chat soon

[BullseyeBrewtality]

In fact, I would try to de-couple the shapes from the modes as much as possible in your head. In reality, that’s pretty hard to do. But it’s extremely important to realize that, if you’re playing over an F lydian progression, and you happen to be playing a scale shape that starts on the 5th fret of the E string, you are not playing A aeolian, you are playing F lydian. You’re playing an F lydian scale that just happens to start on A in that position.

Not to nitpick but for proper terminology learning on my part- F Lydian is a mode of C major, as is A aeolian. So even if our harmony backing track is an F Lydian progression, technically if we play the A aeolian pattern over that progression, modally the pattern name is not called A aeolian anymore?? So when is the A aeolian pattern actually called A aeolian then? Again maybe semantics but want to be knowledgeable!

[Ian]

So when is the A aeolian pattern actually called A aeolian then?

When it’s played over an Am chord. Two things make a mode sound the way they do, the chord it’s being played over and the chord tones being targeted. For example let’s say you’re playing a ii-V-I progression in C (Dm7-G7-Cmaj7). The basic modes you would play over the changes are D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian. All three have the same notes and you can use the same pattern in one position but it’s the notes being targeted over each chord that give the mode its sound.

Play those two E Phrygian licks I put up earlier. The same notes are in C major but it sounds minor because the licks are targeting Em chord tones. The first is targeting the root, b3, and b7 and the second is targeting the 5, b3, and root.

To stay in key, do you start with the first shape and work your way up and down the neck using the first shape (Ionian if you don’t mind for consistency) as your relative base at this point in your soloing? What landmarks are you using to do so?

The landmarks are the chord tones. Try practicing this for Ionian: Play a droning F note in the background. Noodle around with pattern I at the first fret. Target the root, 3rd, 5th (F, A, C) notes in your phrases. Next move up to the 3 fret and noodle using pattern II. Keep targeting F, A, and C. Move up to fret 5 with pattern III and so on.

It takes a ton of practice. Jam over lots of tunes.

[Troy]

did you learn CAGED or 3NPS patterns?

I know what you’re getting at. CAGED uses those “weird” shapes that mix three and two notes per string, right?

I would say, no it does not.

CAGED is a system for mapping chord shapes to lead line shapes, so that you know where your new lead notes are when the chord changes. It does not care what kind of lead note fingering you use for this. Could be 3nps scale fingerings, mixed 3nps and 2nps scale fingerings, pentatonic 2nps fingerings, arpeggio shapes with 1nps and 2nps. It does not matter what the fingering is.

All that matters is that you link the lead note shape with the chord. And then, second, you work out (loaded term, I know) lead note lines that connect from one chord to another, so that you are magically “playing through the changes”.

Every strong improviser we have interviewed appears to play this way, from Gambale to Oz Noy to Mike Stern to you name it. Some players are more explicit about it in their teaching than others. Martin Miller is the most explicit of anyone we have met with. He can tell you exactly how he is mapping the board in his mind, and transitioning as the chords change. I recommend this conversation if you haven’t see it already:

Martin Miller Through the Changes

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Great explanation on the modes bud! I played out those 2 licks on a C major backing track and then an E Phrygian backing track. It sort of worked on the C major, but it sounded out of place. The tonal center of that E was much better with the E Phrygian track of course. Now doing this exercise your explanation on chord tones has life to it

Sorry to harp on your logistical thinking with the patterns as I am still a miss, but lets say you are on Position 1 and then want to rock on position 6. Just move from Position 1 to Position 6 at the drop of a hat. To go from Position 1 to Position 2 it’s easy to “see” 1 3 5 and then just move to 3 5 6 on the low E. But here you are moving from 1st fret low E to 10th fret low E. For me the only way to do it would be to know we have an F on the 13th fret which is the parent root note if we are taking F Ionian from the GIT diagrams. And I can build the patterns from there. Thoughts? Thx again… BB

[BullseyeBrewtality]

@Troy Thank you for jumping in! I am never one to shoo away a good idea in guitar. I know the 3NPS versus CAGED crowds can get pretty heated but like you said, it is a scale system with chords in them (maybe I am paraphrasing it wrong). I just asked @Ian because his GIT patterns are 3NPS as were the other diagrams so I like to know the schools of thoughts from our fellow guitarists…

If I may ask you what I asked Ian- when you are playing over an F major backing track and we are staying in the key of F only (perfect vacuum scenario, no curve balls lol):

1. Do you use the 7 3NPS scale patterns we all know?
2. If not what do you use scale wise? If so, do you look at them in terms of modal names or just shapes?
3. As I asked Ian, it is one thing to shift from one position to the next in terms of visualization but how do you visualize the scales so you can jump from Position 1 to Position 6 or 7 at a whim? Do you spot root notes and so on?
4. THANK YOU

[Troy]

Do you use the 7 3NPS scale patterns we all know?

I use all shapes / whatever shapes I want, so long as I file them under whichever chord I am nearest. Edit: I also prefer licks and phrases to scale shapes. Scales are boring, phrases are interesting. In other words, are you near the F major barre chord shape (the E major looking one)? What shapes/phrases do you know that are near that? That is how you find them. Number of notes per string or type of shape/fingering is irrelevant.

If not what do you use scale wise? If so, do you look at them in terms of modal names or just shapes?

You said we’re in major, so we’re in major. What string am I on? Low E string? What finger, middle on the root, or index on the root? I retrieve only phrases that fit that from the database. This is actually much faster than you think, I can do it instantly and be on my way.

As I asked Ian, it is one thing to shift from one position to the next in terms of visualization but how do you visualize the scales so you can jump from Position 1 to Position 6 or 7

You don’t. You retrieve the phrases from your mental library that match the chord shape you are near, and the finger and string you are on. If the chord changes, you find the new chord shape in the same spot on the fretboard, and find what licks you have filed with it. Those are your new licks.

In order to do this quickly, you must actually memorize (loaded term, I know), how the first chord/lick connects to the second. As in, note for note. So first you memorized licks near chords. Then you memorized two of them together, note for note. No improv, just memorization.

All you need is one chord and one lick to get started mapping, and two chords and two licks to get started playing through the changes. You can add more shapes and licks over time, and over time you can be looser and get “more improvvy” with it, not memorizing everything note for note. But you do need to start that way.

Again, highly recommend you watch the Martin Miller talk - we walk through this step by step using a II-V-I chord progression which is super common in jazz.

[BullseyeBrewtality]

I will give that video a watch as soon as I can! Thank you for the reply. As I have a lot of questions and don’t want to minutia you to death from your replies (CAGED chords? using the root note as your guide (index and middle finger?), etc.), could you give a concrete example of what you mean using chords and licks? If we can honor Mr. Zakk Wylde using the song Autumn Changes as an example (one of his slower songs and can be studied in detail as he played it live in the studio:

He plays E major, A Major (C# root), D7, slides to E7 and then goes back to the A Major (C# root). What would you visualize some licks to be between any of these chords? Have a great evening and look forward to your insight.