Hamsterman Oparin Roll Critique

[hamsterman]

If I’m hijacking this topic here… feel free to make this a new topic or whatever. This question is more geared towards the X-picking people, ie @Troy, @blueberrypie, @Andjoy, etc.

The X-picking exercise the Russian is doing in the beginning really hones in on a problem I’ve had since getting into X-picking, and I know other newbie x-pickers have this issue as well: Inside string skipping over >1 string.

The regular 3-string roll isn’t as much of an issue, but with these rolls (I’ll call them Oparin Rolls)… you gotta cover more ground. So if I start on the downtroke… the 7th note will be really tough, and I will often hit one of the strings on the way back down. (I made an asterisk on the note in problem)

E|–ʌ--------v--------ʌ*—
B|-----v--------ʌ-----------
G|--------------------------
D|--------ʌ--------v-------
A|--------------------------
E|--------------------------

Any tips here???. It feels like my inside picking doesn’t want to escape quite as deep as outside picking. This problem doesn’t really appear until about 140 bpm or so.

I’ve made a video so hopefully you can kinda see what I’m talking about.

[Troy]

Thanks for posting! I’ve moved this to its own thread.

Honestly, it’s hard to comment from this angle. For this type of thing I would really do a “down the strings” type shot, and I would plug in to an amp if you have one. When we look at unplugged electric clips for technique critique, everything’s so quiet it’s really hard to tell what’s going on unless the player is really hitting the strings hard.

For everyone’s general reading, we’ve put together the following tips for lighting and filming:

Filming Your Playing

The two most important points are the down the strings [edit: “framing”, not “farming”!] framing, and orienting the headstock toward the light source until there are no shadows. Third most important, if it’s available, is 120fps. Even when played at normal speed, 120fps video has much less motion blur for moving objects like this.

Thanks again and happy to check it out if you get a chance to re-shoot.

[hamsterman]

Thanks, I’ll try that on tuesday/weds. probably the acoustic would be better. Just as a side note, with my mechanic, it’s very tough to see the actual escaping, unless the camera is right at string level… maybe I can figure out a way to have my phone slightly off to the side… and still looking down the fret-board. I don’t have a magnet, so I’ll see what I can jimmy-rig.

[Andjoy]

I think , from what i can see from the vid, you have a to flat curve.
Look closely at the slo mo vid i posted of Anton in the other topic, you can see he lifts out more than you would think watching it at normal speed.
But it is veeerry difficult to hit just that one string at those speeds.
Anton is a master at this! Look at his vids on YT where he does those big stringskips (even from low to high E) in The Paganini Caprice stuff at blistering speeds. I am practicing it for quite a while know but still can’t do it…

[blueberrypie]

Any tips here??? . It feels like my inside picking doesn’t want to escape quite as deep as outside picking. This problem doesn’t really appear until about 140 bpm or so.

I don’t know. There’s some possible drill you can do for the inside string skip like:

E----------u------------
B------------------u----
G-----------------------
D----d-u-d---d-u-d---d-u

I do that in the video (btw sorry … I can’t have a better shot).

To me that roll is a combination of that string skip with the basic Bluegrass Roll. It’s not radically a different motion. But one thing about the inside string skip is that it involves pick velocity, or momentum that makes it harder to control, esp. for hitting the next string. I think that’s @Tommo who talked about that before. And obviously the more you skip strings the harder it is to control. It’s not just about getting the string skip itself right, but also the ‘recovering’ behind (so to speak). I believe this comes with practice and takes some time to get it right, but there’s nothing uncanny about it.

[Troy]

I do that in the video (btw sorry … I can’t have a better shot).

This looks and sounds pretty good!

I would simply add that I think the forearm turning is your enemy here. This is not just because it’s a different motion than wrist, but also because it’s erratic. It’s like you’re trying to figure out when to turn and not turn, and you’re doing it at different times and in different amounts on various repetitions.

The way to minimize this is to think of the string skip as “even more deviation” as opposed to “turning the arm to get over the string”. In other words, the more you deviate in the ulnar direction, the further the hand goes and the higher it goes. Yes, this will move the pick closer to the bridge. The further you go, the more it will feel like the hand is almost moving along an arc out of your line of sight. That’s ok - that’s what it’s supposed to do.

When you have a static anchor position and you’re trying to cover a large distance like this, there will probably always be some small amount of arm involvement. But it will be minimal across a four-string distance, and essentially imperceptible across a three-string distance. You will not perceive the “kick” motion that you have described, and the motion will feel smoother as a result.

[blueberrypie]

I would simply add that I think the forearm turning is your enemy here

Thanks for commenting and for pointing that out. Indeed I do that, and I think for the ascending inside string change. Obviously more so when string skipping.

Here’s a another clip, which is all inside string change, with string skip.

What I think I’m doing is that I compensate my arm set-up which is very parallel (maybe slightly supinated ? can’t say for sure …) with that forearm move on the down stroke (higher string). It’ not something I seem to be able to control easily actually. For regular string change (no skip) it doesn’t really happen that much, except maybe on the high E string.

[Troy]

Tiny variations in your arm position don’t magically force you to make different movements. You’re turning your arm because you are choosing to do it. And practicing these two string mega-skip things is only cementing that choice, with all that rolling around. I would absolutely stop doing that. If you ever find that this type of jumping around comes up in a musical situation, like some David Grier type of thing where he does the big jumps for bass notes, then you can practice that music that contains the mega skip. And note that when Dave does that, he puts some elbow into it so there isn’t as much rolling around.

As far as your arm position it’s probably fine, or very close to it. The technique works with both heels (thumb and pinky) contacting the strings or body. Just don’t slam those bones dead flat and hug the guitar or strings. Lightly resting both contact points is enough - the arm will still have a slight tilt to it. If it helps, you can imagine that the pisiform bone — the “giblet” as Andy Wood calls it — is the pivot point. That point is stationary on the instrument.

This is more about learning to reach with your hand, not your arm. But rather than telling yourself NOT to turn the arm and NOT to lift the contact points, you can tell yourself TO pivot around the pivot point, and TO reach further with the hand. Do not worry about hitting wrong notes. Make the hand pivot smoothly first and learn what that feels like.

[blueberrypie]

This is more about learning to reach with your hand, not your arm. But rather than telling yourself NOT to turn the arm and NOT to lift the contact points, you can tell yourself TO pivot around the pivot point, and TO reach further with the hand. Do not worry about hitting wrong notes. Make the hand pivot smoothly first and learn what that feels like.

Thanks, that makes sense. Actually I don’t really do those string skips. And when I do It would be more outside string change rather than inside. But that was the point of @hamsterman thread here, hence why …

Anyway that’s interesting … and it reinforces what I think of the ‘Oparin Roll’ to be a mere variation of the basic 3-strings roll. And I believe the string skip can/should be achieved with enough wrist extension to lift up the pick above the string to be skipped (which also happens with the 3-strings roll, but with less pick travel). And as far as I’m concerned that’s that extra wrist extension required that I think eludes me and that I compensate (wrongly) with the forearm.

[hamsterman]

Thanks, I’ll try that exercise. The motion feels the same as the bluegrass roll, so maybe I will continue to go back and forth between the two.

[hamsterman]

Yeah, there is no question that my curve is quite flat. I think I will spend a lot more time practicing those large string-skips because they really do have their own kinda ‘feel’.

[hamsterman]

pisiform bone — the “giblet” as Andy Wood calls it — is the pivot point. That point is stationary on the instrument.

This is more about learning to reach with your hand, not your arm. But rather than telling yourself NOT to turn the arm and NOT to lift the contact points, you can tell yourself TO pivot around the pivot point, and TO reach further with the hand. Do not worry about hitting wrong notes. Make the hand pivot smoothly first and learn what that feels like.

Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about with the pivot, and I am trying to integrate that more now… I think it is key.

One thing I’ve found is that when I use the arm and wrist together for traveling… I get a better ‘feel’… it’s a bit of a sliding pivot. It’s still raw… but I will continue that.