Help with lightly supinated USX

[lars]

I think I have the lightly supinated DSX working:

Normal speed:

I see that this clip has a little more elbow than expected. I checked a few other clips and it isn’t always there. Does this matter?

Slowmo:

But the USX looks less than stellar under the magnet!

Normal speed:

Slowmo:

These two motions feel very different, but perhaps they’re not that different after all!

I’ve tried a lot of stuff over the last days, but the only motions I can generate that are ‘fast and smooth’ (let’s say 140 bpm and above) seem to be more or less trapped on both up- and downstrokes.

I’ve been trying to generate as much air on the upstroke, and as wide a motion (spanning 3 strings), as in the primer, but have been having little luck with either. The clips here are pretty loud acoustically, and I can make it a little louder, but that doesn’t seem to affect the size of the motion under the magnet.

How can I progress from here?

[Johannes]

@lars

These two motions feel very different, but perhaps they’re not that different after all!

I think you’re right! It more or less looks like the same motion, wrist with a bit of elbow, DSX. The USX version has a different pick slant but the motion is more or less the same so you’re not really escaping on the upstrokes but rather swiping the string changes.

This seems to happen a lot on the DSX version as well, but this is more of a tracking problem I guess, since you are actually escaping on most (but not all) pickstrokes. It’s like you’re switching strings at the wrong moment, if that makes any sense.

@lars

I’ve tried a lot of stuff over the last days, but the only motions I can generate that are ‘fast and smooth’ (let’s say 140 bpm and above) seem to be more or less trapped on both up- and downstrokes.

How about shooting a video of that and posting it here!

[lars]

@Johannes

How about shooting a video of that and posting it here!

Think this one is a mix of rotation along with flexion and extension:

rotation with flextension?

When I looked at some of the other fast motions I thought I was generating side by side, the only thing that really changes is the pick’s orientation.

I think the magnet view makes it look like there is more elbow involved than is the case, but I’m not sure. If I’m constantly mixing in elbow that would certainly explain why I can’t get a movement that will consistently escape on the upstroke.

Here’s a clip of elbow:

pronated elbow

And here I try to match the form, with both anchor points, a bit closer while moving only the elbow:

supinated elbow

To me the final two clips look like they have very different arm movements than the others, which means whatever movement is present in (pretty much all the other clips) is just a result of movement at the wrist

[Johannes]

@lars

Think this one is a mix of rotation along with flexion and extension:

I don’t know, I don’t see much rotation or flextension. The main motion seems to be wrist deviation with perhaps a tiny bit of rotation, but it’s not consistent.

@lars

I think the magnet view makes it look like there is more elbow involved than is the case, but I’m not sure. If I’m constantly mixing in elbow that would certainly explain why I can’t get a movement that will consistently escape on the upstroke.

Yes, in this case I think a different camera angle would be helpful. As far as I can tell the “pronated elbow” clip is mostly wrist with some elbow. The “supinated elbow” is elbow, I think.

Anyway, in answer to your original question

@lars

How can I progress from here?

I would keep mixing things up: the grip, the kind of pick, the anchor points and so on, until I stumbled on something that felt good (smooth, fast, etc).

[lars]

@Johannes

I would keep mixing things up: the grip, the kind of pick, the anchor points and so on, until I stumbled on something that felt good (smooth, fast, etc).

Still working on this on and off, but I can’t seem to get there. I have this weird bias toward the DSX movements. I can do them all at this point: elbow, pronated with wrist movement or the lightly supinated version (after working a little on the tracking). But the USX movements still escape me, and thus also the DBX movements.

When playing with distortion it’s generally fine to add pull-offs or whatever to move the string change so it’s DSX, but when playing jazz that’s not so easy. If you flip the picking around to suit your single-escape motion then you’re also changing which notes are played with a downstroke and which are played with an upstroke. These sound different, and that’s one thing, but another is that if you want to accentuate the off-beats then you’re accentuating upstrokes if you stole from this player and accentuating downstrokes if you stole from another!

I think I’m messing up the physical setup in some way. I think I’m restricting my wrist from making the right movement. E.g. the vids in the OP are more supinated than most of the reference videos. Since I’m not escaping on the upstrokes I figured I had to supinate more, but as I get more and more supinated the pinky side of the hand will restrict deviation movement as it collides with the bridge. Stern and Troy both have the thenar eminance resting on the strings, but I seem unable to find a smooth upstroke escape motion from that position.

How do you get an escape with a margin that’s wider than 10%? Perhaps I can get something like that going and then work my way down to 10%?

[Johannes]

Looking at your videos one more time, it seems to me you’re using your elbow to some extent regardless of what motion you’re going for. This could explain why, in your words:

@lars

I have this weird bias toward the DSX movements.

So maybe you could try to find a motion that does not use elbow at all. You need to find the feeling of moving only your wrist. If you can do that, perhaps the USX motion is not far behind.