Crazy right? I think it is great when players have immense believe in their playing and want to make clear choices on their style, but when a guitarist will slag off 99% of guitarists because they use pull offs as opposed to ‘Lord Holdsworth’s - I should have played saxophone, because thats what I really wanted to do’ legato, is just absurd. Don’t get me wrong, everything has its place in music, but those sort of opinions really grinds my gears!
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Also, I see terms as ‘legato’ as contextual - its a description not so much of a technique. Even alternate picking could be considered legato if followed by heavily staccato picked notes.
I used to play violin and legato was achieved by playing multiple notes with one bowing action. If you make a bowing action for each note, you are not playing staccato (where each note is played as short as possible). So we have 3 main ways to play (not including pizzicato- plucking) and they form part of a spectrum of possible ways to articulate a note. Guitar is no different, we have staccato picking, smooth picking, percussive/plucked legato (hammers and pull-offs) and piano-like legato (all hammers). Surely we would want all those in our musical arsenal???
I don’t think anyone is saying anything else. But if I’m going to practice the legato aspect of my playing I want to make sure that it really sounds legato.
I wou;don’t go as far as to say “surely.” Some want it all in their arsenal but for me, it’s plenty to have staccato picking, smoother picking, and for legato hammer-ons and pull-offs. All hammers, personally, and this is just my opinion, is a waste of time because suppose you’re playing and you want a legato sound. So. you’re playing these three notes: *Pick 8th fret on the high E, pulloff to 7th fret and then pulloff to 5th fret on high E." Well, if you do “only hammers”, you can’t play this legato! Your only choices are what I just described: Legato sound achieved by using pulloffs, or you can pick the notes for a staccato sound. If you want to take it to the ABSOLUTE LIMIT, you can pick each note so hard you almost break the string with each pick stroke for “SUPER-EXTREME STACCATO”!!!
A new technique is born! I’d love to see that - pick too hard and you only get one note per string and then your tune is finished!
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Ha ha! I love it! It sounds like something that awful Black Metal band Venom would have proudly insisted they do on every solo! Do you remember them? They thought they were the heaviest band in the world since when they began there was no other black metal and death metal hadn’t been invented yet. Almost every one of their songs was about Satan. They were so bad they were funny.
On a more serious note, this song I’m linking you to has a guitar solo at 4 minutes in that has perfectly beautiful legato playing in much of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyeBVfpwGbk
Of course you do, me and @Acecrusher were still on about the whole silliness about what is or isn’t considered ‘real’ legato. @Acecrusher seems to think that legato is legato. I’m a little more open to there being a spectrum of smoothness, but it does seem to be more discussion on the subject than I expected
In all honesty, I should have read the thread more closely- I’m probably barking up the wrong tree anyway!
So when is you legato “really sounding legato”? (Serious question - I’m not being sarcastic)
You guys are talking around each other here. In music theory legato and staccato are not techniques. They are sound descriptions. Legato means smooth. Staccato means short, separated or detached. Picking a note really hard does not make it staccato unless the note is choked out immediately afterwards. Palm muting is an example of staccato playing. Legato means that there is little or no perceptible gap between the notes.
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Exactly, as I stated in one of my posts above…If I have said anything to the contrary, it was not my intention…
As far as I’m concerned the guitar solo in this song is a great example of a solo with a beautiful legato ending to it:
Me too. The thing about picking so hard the strings almost break was my attempt at humor; I hope some people got a kick out of it. 
@PickingApprentice This is what I mean when my legato technique is sounding legato. The technique most often used for playing legato can also be played more staccato or more as a “special effect” for playing fast without playing clear subdivisions to a beat. Both are valid approaches that can sound great and that one might want to practice towards. But I think it’s good to be clear about what kind of sound I’m after when practicing. Hope I’m making sense.
Correct. I would add that while not formally part of the definition of staccato, to me at least, staccato sounds more aggressive than legato. A great example is Gary Moore’s muted, fast picking on the low strings in this amazing solo which has other excellent examples of staccato playing as well:
So do you think that all-hammers reduces the perceived gap?
Not necessarily. It can sound very staccato as well.
Indeed, my opinion also.
So how do you work on your legato? What would you like to improve?
@PickingApprentice Right now I often practice slowly to make sure I use a comfortable and relaxed technique with a light touch because I know that when I play I tend get a little strained or tense. I like the sound of what you described as piano-like legato so right now I’m working on that by practicing all hammers but I’m struggling to make them feel relaxed and legato sounding. I don’t think that all hammers is a technique that will ever be a big part of my actual playing because it’s difficult for me. I kinda think of it as a useful excercise in left hand control for making my usual hammer-on/pull-off technique more controlled. Lately I have realised that my muting technique is not as good as I want. I have not played so much with distortion earlier. I work on this by playing phrases or scales slowly with left hand only and listening closely for any noise when switching strings. I also do this with sweep picking excercises.
Cool, thanks for the post, I haven’t spent much time recently on legato, but I’m getting my picking to the point where the synchronisation is getting a bit ropey!
I find that I’m not great at picking at ‘random’ times with legato (mainly ascending to new string. I always hammer on when decending. Its okay, but I would like to be able to transition between picking and legato more easily - kind of like how Steve Lukather does
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Wow, a lot of activity here in 24 hours.
Hi @Muggen. I can perform conventional legato with hammers and pull-offs or all-hammer legato in either posture.
I cannot believe so many people are so concerned about “how legato their legato sounds.”
Hi @Acecrusher.
Hearing Holdsworth’s playing as a teenager had a huge effect on me. I was already familiar with the conventional style of legato, as used by Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, etc and I was already very familiar with the standard “shred” vocabulary of legato licks. Holdsworth’s playing was categorically different. His lines are not built around conventional patterns, and his sound was incredibly smooth and distinctive. I loved it, and I wanted to be able to emulate it.
Further, as I’ve gotten older my tastes have become more diverse. I listen to a lot of music which doesn’t feature guitar at all now. I enjoy the sound of a wide variety of different instruments in different musical contexts. I want to be able to emulate some of the sounds of those other instruments also.
I can’t speak for others, but I hope this explains my motivations for my focus on the minutia of legato technique.
If we alternate pickers were this obsessive over “how staccato our staccato sounds” we’d probably be comparing notes on how often we break strings from the sheer force of trying to pick each note with as absolutely a heavy pick attack as possible!
The most extreme staccato sound we can achieve on guitar is relatively easy to achieve, with a simple recipe for success. Pick firmly and palm mute. Achieving the most extreme legato sound we can achieve on a guitar is much more difficult. The guitar is a percussive instrument in nature.
I was taught if you’re using hammer-ons and pull-offs it’s legato and if you’re picking all or at least most of the votes it’s staccato." Besides, how can anyone have an “all-hammer-on legato” when if the next note you want to play is on a lower fret, you have to use a pull-off to get there?
Again, staccato and legato are terms that describe quality of sound. Both sounds can be achieved in different ways. As for descending with hammers to a note on a lower fret, I’ve discussed how this can be done in minute detail in my posts above.
If Holdsworth picks notes that would normally be pulled-off when a player wants legato, and hammer-ons are his only legato technique, then he’s neglecting the possibility for roughly 50% more legato since you can estimate that there are normally a roughly 50/50 split between hammer-ons and pull-offs in legato lines.
You seem think that a picked note is a “staccato” note and that a note which is sounded with a hammer or a pull-off is a “legato” note. The conclusion that you can get more “legato” by using pull-offs instead of picking, you achieve more “legato” notes and thus more “legato.” The logic is understandable, but the premises are false, and the deduction is not true as a result of this.
Have you heard Criss Oliva’s legato sound on his solo to the title track of “Edge Of Thorns”? That is top notch, elite level legato!
I have actually. I like Savatage and I like Chris’s playing. While I enjoy the solo, I do not consider the legato playing to be “elite level.”
By the way, I know you don’t mean to sound dismissive or rude and I haven’t read your posts in that way. Please know that if my tone comes off as defensive or condescending, that is not my intention either.
Crazy right? I think it is great when players have immense believe in their playing and want to make clear choices on their style, but when a guitarist will slag off 99% of guitarists because they use pull offs as opposed to ‘Lord Holdsworth’s - I should have played saxophone, because thats what I really wanted to do’ legato, is just absurd. Don’t get me wrong, everything has its place in music, but those sort of opinions really grinds my gears!
Hi @PickingApprentice. I don’t mean to diminish anybody’s playing, but I think it would be impossible to argue that the conventional approach to legato allows for the same degree of smoothness as the Holdsworth approach. The Holdsworth approach also allows for much greater freedom in legato lines without having to resort to standard patterns.
It is much more difficult develop the Holdsworth method, and the time and effort could be better spent on other pursuits for players who don’t see the value of the method. I think the facility to achieve a smoother sound in a much wider variety of lines must surely imply that the Holdsworth approach to legato is a superior approach to legato than the conventional approach.
In a similar vein, picking hard and palm muting is a superior approach to staccato playing over trying to quickly lift the fretting finger after picking to to damp the note early. The second approach has merit, but the first achieves a more staccato sound more reliably and with much greater facility for a wider variety of lines.
All hammers, personally, and this is just my opinion, is a waste of time because suppose you’re playing and you want a legato sound. So. you’re playing these three notes: *Pick 8th fret on the high E, pulloff to 7th fret and then pulloff to 5th fret on high E." Well, if you do “only hammers”, you can’t play this legato!
Hi again @Acecrusher. This is incorrect. I can play that sequence using only hammers and achieve a legato sound. I have developed the technique necessary to do so. Again, I’ve written a very detailed post on how this can be achieved earlier in this thread.
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