How Do You Feel About Bands Touring With Non-Original Members?


#1

By non-original I’m referring to it in the sense of: original line-up is the line-up that made the band famous and that people usually think of when they think about that band even if it isn;t technically their very fist lune-up. Pantera’s original vocalist was Terry Glaze but for the purpose if this thread, I’f consider Phil Anselmo the vocalist in Pantera’s original line-up since he’s the one everybody thinks of when someone says “Pantera’s vocalist.”

So, using that definition, how do you feel about classic bans touring with lime-ups that don;t include their original people such as their original guitarists as in the case of Judas Priest.

First, Priest had to replace K.K. Downing when he retired. But they still had Glen Tipton so you could still see them with one of their original guitarists. How they either are replacing Tipton or they already have replaced him. The drummer in Priest changed a lot of times so he’s not essential to this conversation. But if you go to see Judas Priest now, the only original members you will see are Rob Halford and Ian Hill on bass. Is it right that they even call themselves Judas Priest? What do you think?

Personally I think that although I have no problem with Rob Halford getting new guitarists so he can still tour and sing Priest songs instead of retiring with KK and Glen. Rob apparently doesn’t feel ready to retire. He likes singing Priest songs so he’s not going to reform Fight. Besides, that’s what the vast majority of Halford’s fans want to hear him sing. So all of that is fine except I have mixed feelings about actually using the name Judas Priest. I don’t think it’s terrible, but maybe it is a bit disrespectful to Glen and KK.

Now, I’m simply asking the question: Do you still have any desire to see a band if they only have one or two original members from their original line-up?

I might still want to see a band with only one or two original members, but it depends on who they are. If they only have 2 original members, one of them better be my favorite member of the band, or be tied with some others for “favorite member of the band.” I wouldn’t go to see Guns 'n Roses with just Izzy Straddling and Duff McKagen if that were something that was actually happening.


#2

Doesn’t really matter to me as long as “the main guy” is still there. I probably wouldnt pay anywhere near as much for tickets. But it’s probably still going to be a great show, with the songs you love. It gets a little weird if EVERYONE is replaced. But it would probably still be a fun show nonetheless.


#3

it can get silly. Its like “so and so band featuring so and so” and you never even heard of the dude and u look him up and he was just a keyboard player that toured with them once but never recorded lol.

Then u have all the La Guns type situations where u have more then one band using the name lol. Like the singer has his version of the band and then the guitar player has his version.

TBH im not into seeing most of the old school bands live at this point. id rather remember them as they were. i mean, age and a brutal lifestyle has its effects. Like, have u heard Mike Tramp sing in the last decade or so. I loved dudes voice with White Lion back in the day. Nice light and young sounding tenor. Its waaaaay deeper now and it simply doesnt sound like White Lion. Dokken, Coverdale, Roth…glory days waaaaaayyyyy gone.

Paul Rogers has probably kept his voice pretty good but him singing in Queen?? I dont see it

Then Bad Company did the tour(s) with a different singer. uggh.

Foreigner without Lou Gramm? nah. Then again Lou Gramm is probably sort of done as a singer and those songs were EXTREMELY demanding

VH, my fave band, but DLR has been done for a longgggg time. They might be the exception. If they toured with Michael Starr standing in for Dave it would probably be close to a flashback from 1979

dude even had the talking voice down to a degree (being himself from the midwest as Dave was)


#4

I haven’t heard David Lee Roth’s singing voice within the last 10 years or more, so tell me, exactly how much of his vocal ability has he lost? Would he at least be capable of hitting the notes in songs like “Unchained” or “Hot For Teacher” which don’t have particularly high notes compared to “On Fire” or “Runnin’ With The Devil” or “You’re No Good”

If you’re interested in finding out more about his life outside of Van Halen, David Lee Roth was interviewed just a few days ago on the Joe Rogan podcast for a 3 hour interview!


#5

dude, he cant sing at all now lol. His style was so muscular and hard to sing that IMO really he NEVER tried to sing live lol. he’d sing a little and then go into some jive etc. I just think he never wanted to work that hard live since he was already running around putting on a show…no way to also do all of that hard physical singing


#6

That’s interesting JonJon about the “muscular style” of singing because I know you have more experience learning about singing the right way since in more than one occasion you’ve mentioned in posts about having participated in forums for vocalists and how disjointed and full of terms which have many “definitions” those forums are. You said nobody seems to agree on what things mean such as “projecting.” I suppose they’d also disagree on what a muscular style of singing is.

I imagine that it means it uses the vocal cords in a very demanding way. Is that what wore out his vocal cords earlier than they otherwise would have worn out or was it more his lifestyle and consumption of various “vices” that caused him to lose his ability to sing?


#7

hard to say exactly. Pretty sure he did his share of drugs and booze and he aint no spring chicken anymore

singing, without arguing over definitions, in short you have “chest voice” and “head voice”. Chest voice is basically when you sing with your speaking voice. This would be how most people just sing along with the radio etc, or how untrained people sing.

Well the problem with that is you can only go so high with that. Now most untrained people at that point will just “flip” into falsetto. but with training you can use “head voice” which is sort of like saying a stronger version of falsetto.

Chest voice sounds throatier and sort of more manly. You can think of all the old school 70s guys like Tom Jones or the classic House of the Rising Son. head voice is thinner like any sort of RnB or something like Prince or Darryl Hall

obviously guys like Chris Cornell could use both styles and mix them together well etc etc. Rob Halford would be more of a strong head voice

Chest voice can only go so high and then you have to start blending into thinner head voice. Well, u can extend that chest voice range to a degree by using more muscular force lol. You can train to be stronger just like weightlifting for the vocal muscles.

Opera singers use huge muscular force etc. takes about 10 years of training lol. When u look at it, they dont have a big range at all. a “high C” is the big money note for a Pavarotti type. Well a high C isnt high at all lol. That would be a C4. David Coverdales money note would be like an E5 so thats over an octave higher. Whats the difference? Coverdale is using a screamy type of headvoice, whereas the opera guys are using more like a huge muscular chest voice. Big difference. I can do the Coverdale stuff but no way the opera thing lol

So IMO David Lee really used a lot of strength and force in his singing in general. He wouldnt really thin out and go into a lighter headvoice like a Mike Tramp or a Seb Bach

David Lee was basically a baritone by nature so when he leaned into it he got into a good rock vibe for his high notes. Baritones that learn how to lean into it make great rock singers. See—> Coverdale, Roth, Cornell, Geoff Tate, Billy Idol etc

Coverdale would release up into that real fake rock sounding headvoice whereas David didnt really do that.

Cornell had no issues with releasing up into thinner headvoice stuff so he didnt have to work quite as hard

I think Geoff Tate got kind of lazy on training and sort of lost his best voice

Billy Idol has worked hard and held it together pretty well

But poor David Lee basically took the hardest route IMO (which sounding GREAT!) by always “going strong” to get his great sounding high notes etc. Its hard enough to do that in the studio and its sort of high maintenance…and to do it while giving the DLR type of live performance?? nah, not happening lol


one of the rare cases of a singer who kind of wasnt too special at first but then worked hard and got REALLY good for a while was Paul Stanley. Whereas a lot of singers have to drop the key of songs over time, I think Paul actually RAISED the key of some of their songs to show off his improved range. Pretty sure he is shot now though lol. There is some footage in the last decade or so of him doing the Star Spangled Banner…tough song and he struggled a bit.

Julie Andrews was one of the greatest singers ever and she had a botched surgery and they ruined her

I think i read that the same thing recently happened to Lindsey Buckingham


#8

Thanks for that answer; I learned a lot from it :slight_smile:

BTW, I also think Paul Stanley is underrated as a vocalist. “I Still Love You” from Creatures Of The Night is one of the great heavy metal ballads.


#9

Van Halen is a unique case because VH has two successful front men. DLRs voice is done. It just is. And I liked both DLR and Sammy growing up. I’m more upset that VH kicked Mike out to put Ed’s kid Wolfgang in. That’s where all the high vocals came from and Mike is the sweetest most genuine guy. Ed and Alex still sound great, and maybe some newer fans don’t care that Wolfgang is up there, but if you’re a die hard fan…no matter who your band is…then you’d rather see the original line up. Mikey and Sammy still play together and they sound fantastic. Absolutely loved their stuff when they formed Chickenfoot with Chad a Smith from a RHCP and Satriani…fantastic live show! Such fresh energy and no baggage. When I see Hagar play VH stuff in Cabo with Mike Anthony, Vic Johnson on guitar and Jason Bohnam on drums or even Kenny Arnoff…it’s still friggin awesome. Would I rather see Ed…I would, but if it sounds good I’ll enjoy it. I’d still go to a VH show to see Ed…might be disappointed by some other aspects, but such is life after divorce I suppose.


#10

It made me sad that Michael Anthony wasn’t part of the 2007 or 2011 Van Halen tours, but I recognize that those tours probably wouldn’t even have happened if it weren’t for Wolfgang’s involvement.

To me, if it’s a choice between seeing a “partial” reconstruction of a group versus not seeing them at all, I’ll try to make the best of things with the partial reconstruction. As long as a key piece is still there and the performance by the new blood isn’t a vast divergence from what made me love the songs to begin with.


#11

What happened to Chickenfoot? I never hear them mentioned anymore. Did they disband?

Nepotism is a powerful force. I can understand Eddie wanting to give his son that opportunity. Was it the right thing to do? I don’t know. Maybe not. It certainly wasn’t right or fair from Michael’s point of view. Life isn’t and never has been fair though.

I’d prefer that Wolfie had gotten his own band together and that his dad had simply given that band the opening slot on Van Halen’s tour. To me, that would have been a much better way of handling it. Eddie could have even done a series of shows as the temporary guitarist on Wolfie’s band if he wanted the experience of playing on stage with his boy.

Regarding Sammy Hagar, you’re right in that he was successful in replacing David Lee Roth from a financial point of view. Artistically? That’s trickier. Of course it depends on what you like. It was certainly a huge change in style and attitude for the band’s music because Hagar wrote a lot of love songs and Roth didn’t sing love songs. He sang about good looking women. He sang about sex. He sang “Ain’t Talkin’ Bout Love.” Dave never would have sang a song like “Love Comes Walking In.”


#12

as part of “being allowed” to play on whatever last tour Michael Anthony played on, he agreed to give up his rights to royalties etc

remember how it used to just say “Music by VanHalen”? (all 4 members) not anymore

Eddie is all about the $$$. even back in ollldddd interviews during their heyday, Eddie is bitching that Mike was making 1/4th of the $$$ but not contributing as much

my respect for Eddie as a musician is inversely proportional to my respect for him as a person

btw, Sammys net worth dwarfs Eddies


#13

Interesting!

So when you say Michael, in exchange for being ‘allowed’ (how demeaning!) to play with the mighty VH, gave up his rights to royalties. do you mean literally royalties from albums from then on, so even now he doesn’t get any royalties when people buy Van Halen albums? Or do you mean something else like his share of the profits on t-shirts and other merchandise sold on that specific tour? That at least would be just for that tour, whereas giving up his royalties isn’t connected to that tour; it’s permanent. Unless it’s something really bizarre like he gave up his share of royalties sold on albums bought during the time span of that particular tour, but once the tour is over he starts getting royalties again

Regarding Sammy’s net worth dwarfing Eddie’s, I suspect that that has to do more with Eddie spending more money than Sammy than with Sammy outwearing Eddie (which I would be very surprised about if true). I can imagine Sammy making somewhat less than Eddie over the course of his career, but being much wiser with how he spent it and with investments as well.

We know that a small fortune went up Eddie’s nose. Maybe Sammy doesn’t have that vice. Second, when someone’s doing coke, he’s likely to spend more on everything else too. He’s also probably less likely to be looking into smart ways to invest his money. Back in is drinking days too, I doubt he invested wisely. Sammy may very well have invested wisely.

Eddie at one time could have ended up extremely wealthy. In addition to his earnings, he was married to Valerie Bertinelli. Imagine what their combined incomes must have been! But then the most financially costly thing that can happen to a man happened - divorce! That must have been financially devastating.

Gene Simmons tells men the worst financial mistake they can make is getting married. Gene’s net worth is in NINE figures. It is…
wait…


$350,000,000

I would listen to financial advice from this man. He has never done drugs. he doesn’t drink alcohol. He finally got married, but only after living with Shannon Tweed (nice catch!) for over 20 years. They have two beautiful children and what is rare in this day and age, especially from a family where the father is a rock star and the mom is a former Playboy Playmate Of The Year, their children actually enjoy spending time with their parents. That was true when Sophie was a teenager and Nick was in his early 20s. That’s a time when you usually don’t enjoy spending much time with your parents. You’re able to drive, to drink, you’re independent for the first time and yet, far from growing up as spoiled brats which might be people’s first guess as to what the kids of a rock star worth a third of a billon dollars would become, Sophie and Nick are respectful, polite and come across as genuinely good kids. Gene and Shannon have done a great job as parents.


#14

pretty sure Mike makes no money off album sales anymore

Sammy makes a crapton of money from other wise investments. you know he sells tequila etc? lol


#15

Sammy is an entrepreneur. He definitely makes far an away more than Ed. Sam sold his Cabo Wabo Tequila to Sky Vodka for nearly $100M!!! And that’s just a fraction of what Sam is up to.

As far as Chickenfoot goes, it’s not a full time gig…it’s 4 guys that get together and play for fun. They made two albums and toured in between their main gigs. They may make another album, but it’s just for fun so there is no break up, no pressure to be successful or sign a commitment. Friends with benefits…open relationship kind of thing.


#16

That is impressive! Eddie had the creativity to have been an entrepreneur as well - he created the prototype for the “superstrat.” I’m not sure, did anyone else play one before him?

You can tell he had the mind for it because the things he was doing were so far ahead of their time. Some others had experimented with tapping before him but nobody ever took it to where he did before him. Then he did things like the intro the Mean Street which again, was just so ahead of its time. He was the most innovative player since Hendrix and that’s saying something! Eddie and Jimi are probably still the two most influential rock guitarists to this day. Yngwie may be the third most influential rock guitarist of all time.


#17

What fret on the guitar would that be? 12th fret on the high E?

If he’s using head voice and the R&B singers use head voice for high notes, what makes Halford’s voice sound so much fuller on the high notes? Is there a technique for making your head voice fuller, do some people just have a natural fuller head voice than others?

Did you like the vocals on Steelheart’s first album? Their singer hit some high notes on that!


#18

yep, 12th fret e string. “Middle C” (C4) is 1st fret b string etc. “High C” (C5) is 13th fret b string or 8th fret e string

Music notes r a little weird in that the octave changes on the C note. So youd have, say, A4,A#4,B4,C5 etc

yeah, Steelheart dude was good. He had some sort of accident on stage where some lighting or something fell on him and it messed him up bad. I guess he had surgery etc and was never the same. I think the actual vid of it is online. But yeah, one of the top guys on that 1st album.

Halford and most metal guys just train to be strong in that range. Lots of force even though it is thinned out. Most of the RnB guys simply dont go for that sound. They dont train for it. Essentially they are “crooning” which is just really light singing. They hardly use any breath support or force etc.

falsetto = no cord closure so its just air passing thru freely etc. Falsetto is usually high range stuff like the BeeGees but u can also do falsetto down in the chest voice range

chest voice = essentially speaking voice or “call voice” like when u holler at some dude down the road etc.

head voice = lighter and thinned out, higher range voice that still has some cord closure etc. so its not the same as falsetto. (remember, every1 has their own definitions of these things lol. some will shout u down and sweat ‘there is no head voice’ blah blah.)

“bridging” = smoothly transitioning from chest to head. sometimes u hear them do a long thing like Whitesnake 'still of the niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight" where he starts the note low and raises it way up in one smooth note. This has to be learned and trained. But it also occurs in singing phrases.

if someone doesnt know how to bridge they are generally going to “yodel” or “flip” up into very light falsetto

for most male tenors they are going to start to run out of gas in the chest range around c4 to d4 give or take a note or two. This transition area is called the “passagio” (Italian for passageway I guess)

They can extend that range a bit by simply applying more force etc. Or if they are trained then of course they can just gradually thin out and work their way higher without an blatant changes on any particular note. A lot of guys will get sort of shouty as they lean into their “high” notes if they dont know how to transition into head voice

other singers just never learn to bridge and dont use high falsetto so their whole career is in chest voice. AFAIK the highest note SRV ever hit was B4 and that was rare lol. Clapton was essentially the same as SRV except Clapton learned how to use some falsetto high notes. Sam Cooke was another that kept it smooth and pretty much C5 was the top for him.

some examples of different ranges and sounds:

F#4 - I STAY AWAY. later in song he uses variations up to g#4. Layne was a tenor so this wasnt high for him but his style was to really lean into it with lots of force and distortion etc. F#4-G#4 was right in his sweet spot and most of their choruses are right around there

A4 Im assuming Eric Burden was a baritone? dunno. But the money note here over and over is A4. Notice how “shouty” it is. no different than yelling across a field

B4. “and IIIIIIIIIIIII cant let u go” for some guys this would be about as high as they could go and it would be real shouty. of course Joe knows how to use head voice so this is just another note for him. This is a sweet spot for him so u can hear plenty of fullness but also that sort of high ringing quality. one of the best male examples of a B4. of course when a female does it there r other qualities because of the range differences. for example Whitney Houston’s famous “IIIIIIIIIIII will always love u” etc. B4, but for her thats a pretty low note lol. thats why she was able to lean into it etc

only one note different than the A4 above but way different tonal quality. You can hear that Joe released up into headvoice some whereas Eric just leaned hard onto his chest voice

C5, shouty and gritty

c5, of course the classic money note for opera singers. they specially train for a certain dark vocal quality with weight etc so this is HARD

same c5 from baritone Billy Gibbons. scratchy, raspy etc. he is singing the whole verse on basically one of his highest notes lol

Hey Hey (A4) Momma said the way you Move (c5), gonna make (e5)…

notice how it got thinner as it went up. Robs a tenor though so no problem. he was leaning into the A4 but lightened up slightly as he went higher

c#5 that gives me chills every time. sounds different from a female due to range differences. this was a powerful spot for her

D5 for good measure

D5-D#5 with a few f5s thrown in from a baritone

Coverdale is a baritone who knows how to use great rock headvoice etc.

nice D5 on “cover”. D5-E5 is a sweet spot for Davids screamy falsetto/headvoice. only 1 note higher than the opera guys but totally different tonal vibe

also more falsettoish sounding compared to Barbara because this is higher in Davids range than hers was in her range

nice climb to e5

f#5

F5 down to E5, our boy

F#5

G5 amazing, somewhat overlooked singer. hard to replicate https://youtu.be/83Eqpu2JX-4?t=237

G#5s from Hagar and Ray Gillen

A5

crazy A5 from David. his highest note ever

the ladies, some crazy stuff

the man, this is some weird thing where he is catching a harmonic. Janis Joplin did some of this on occasion but hers wasnt as cultivated as Daves

up to C6! one of the the only guys who could actually sing intelligible phrases up that high


#19

one of the best teachers online, sitting there at 1k subs lol. Ukranian dude, English 2nd language so thick accent etc.

But dude has crazy vocal skills and great explanations even though he uses some of his own terms.

he is showing the basic idea though, ‘chest voice’ might be though of as “mouth voice” and then as u go higher the resonance feels as if it moves higher into the head etc.


#20

hi jonjon teach me to sing please