How do you keep your economy picking even in rhythm?

Playing Technique
#1

I was watching clips of Brandon Ellis playing and it looks like he uses a lot of economy picking, so this inspired me to practice a little more at it.

For me, ascending licks are ok, but descending from a higher string to a lower string feels weird. It’s as if I have no control over the way in which the pick escapes from the string and strikes another - this is descending licks I’m referring to.

Wondering if anyone else has this experience and what you do to remedy it? Do you have a specific lick you practice?

#2

I’m interested in this also.

I’ve done a major overhaul of my playing over the last couple of years and now use one way economy, as it suits the forearm and wrist setup well.

Before this though, I was using economy picking. I always had issues with it though.
Controlling the timing, getting stuck with the pick etc etc.

I think that certain grip and arm positions work better for two way economy than others though.

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#3

One thing I did find though, was that it was sometimes a lot easier to play something fast than it was at medium or even slow tempos with economy.

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#4

I’m interested in this also, although for me personally, ascending was more difficult. However, I read an article in music educator’s journal about kinesthesis and how we learn. It made me slow my practice down a lot, so everything I played, there’s a neurological reason for practising slow.I made sure it was played it correctly, and in time I started to advance quicker than I had been when I practised at speed

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#5

Personally have found the most success for myself with practicing difficult accents within the line. At slow and medium tempos. I’ve found it evens out the control.

For example, in any case of 3 string sweeping, practice accenting the middle of the 3; it’s much more physically intuitive to accent the first and last. Bringing that awareness to the “middle” I’ve found transfers to better rhythmic control, as we’re not just playing a sweep like a bunch of grace notes.

Side anecdote: first “shred” video I ever got was probably in 1999, Terry Syrek’s “Shred is not dead” VHS and I think when he was teaching sweeps in that video he talked about “first and last syndrome.”

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#6

This is an excellent exercise, and I can imagine it gives greater control within a musical line. It reminds me of practising with the metronome set on 2&4 to help internalise a sense of time. Thanks for sharing that.

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#7

I’m thinking I’d like to explore economy picking again now.
Where would be a good place to start? A 3nps scale ascending and descending? Start slow or with speed?

Sorry If I’m hijacking the thread here…

#8

I play the Paul Gilbert Intense Rock pattern, like so - played terribly!!!

@JakeEstner that is quite difficult to do!! I have always been a “first note as an anchor” when using economy picking. Economy picking is one of the most difficult techniques for me.

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#9

This is one of the things I would practice at a medium tempo like sweep picking to make sure you are syncing up your hands. Economy picking is naturally a fast technique, so once you get the feel of it, it’s usually not very hard at all to increase speed. You are really looking for even notes and a smooth string shift.

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#10

Yeah I figured it might be best to work on timing and control before speed.
I’ll start working on it again and see what happens.

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#11

Are you getting a bit stuck with the pick on the descending sweeps? Do you slant every so slightly in the direction of the sweep? I found that helpful.

#12

yes, I get stuck on the descending sweep.
I think I am slanting on the direction of the sweep, but not entirely sure. I would need to analyse it again.

It’s very hard to put into words, it’s more of a feel thing.

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This is a Jake E Lee lick from Secret Loser solo. I’ve been playing it with economy picking, but there’s something just not right about the phrasing. It’s like there is a split second of a timing discrepency when going from high to lower strings… like the notes are too mushed together. Very hard to correct it!

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#13

Chris Brooks book on economy picking is a great way to start.

https://chrisbrooks.com/economy-picking-guitar-technique-book/

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#14

I know that seems like a ‘simple’ lick but mechanically I think it’s a lot more difficult (to get in an even rhythm) than a lot of other economy examples because you have nothing in between um ‘reverse-direction sweeps’

I’d say economy picking has been my primary mode of operation for lead stuff and I know a personal weak spot is stuff where I have to change directions with no slur or additional note in between. I don’t have a problem with the example you posted but I don’t think it’s the best figure to use as an economy picking testing ground.

Because the direction changes so quickly, I think a perceptible slant change would probably slow us down, but that’s just a hypothesis on my part.

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#15

Ah yeah, those two string ones get me too. I can do it fast, sometimes, but medium tempos it never felt right

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#16

Would you be so kind as to post a video of how you play this lick?

Do you think keeping an even pick angle would make this lick easier? Like, maybe keeping the pick more parallel to the strings?

#17

Speed will come, work on accuracy and be reflective on your practice routine. Dont be afraid to slow things down, every correct repetition is internalised, unfortunately so is every incorrect one so take it slow.

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#18

I think I was overconfident when I posted my comment: to play it with those exact strokes was more difficult than I expected. Like @jptk said, fast is easier than medium.

I do wonder why someone would use those strokes for 2nps back and forth; it’s such a classic one way escape scenario. I give some examples of lines/licks that I think of as more at home for economy stuff.

By the way at one point I say “Yeah I do al little bit of that but I don’t know” I was referring to the arm turning/slant change stuff for the economy licks.

I think that, yes. Am I confident in how close that thought is to the physical realities of the scenario? No. Like you see in the vid, I do a teeny bit of slant changing in my sweeps, but I’m not sure if that’s something I’ve done because it works, or something that I’ve done just because my hand/arm wanted to do it. And I wonder about my own arm turning combined with my stated difficulty of doing quick changes in direction in sweeps/economy. I’d wager there may have already been some threads on that exact issue - changing slants for sweeps, but I haven’t looked into it.

For whatever it’s worth, if helpful, a couple years ago on my instagram I did a mid length sweep/economy intro covering what i see as the fundamentals, things i usually have to go over with students:

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#19

Sorry for the late reply.

Thanks for posting this video. From your video, and my own experiments, I think that keeping the pick more parallel to the strings works because you don’t have to make as much movement when changing directly. Adding some edge picking certianly helps too.

Now, nailing the rhythm! For me, that is the hard part. Do you think that with a good technique the rhythm would come?

#20

I don’t honestly think you have to worry as much about slanting angles, etc… as much as you think. Certainly do whatever you are finding you have greater success with, but don’t think you have to change up you entire picking method for this.

The rhythm aspect of this is more a product of hand sync and accenting. It’s one of the more boring aspects of practicing anything, and guitar playing in general, but necessary all the same. For that you have have to slow down a bit, and work on developing that brain/ear/hand connection.

Like I said earlier, economy picking is naturally a mechanically faster technique from the get go like sweep picking is, meaning it’s relatively easy for beginners to get some incredible speed out of them, but most of the issues people tend to have with both are the more rudimentary elements and thus boring aspects of guitar playing such as rhythmic accuracy, synchronization and cleanliness while using them. To develop that, and really get good at them, you have to do all those boring things that people talk about.

I honestly feel that in the end, economy picking is most useful as a tool where you are combining it here and there briefly with other techniques. If I have time I’ll post another one of those licks in the show and tell that uses it on two strings to kind of get feet wet.

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