How do you make fast music swing?

Hello fellow trailing and leading edge pickers,

I’ve been wondering, how do you add swing to fast rhythmic and melodic passages? It feels challenging to achieve speed when the 8th notes are straight but there’s swing on the 16ths or when a song is simply very fast like bebop.

Also, there’s this style of funk rhythm that follows the usual constant 16ths but it doesn’t feel as straight fours a la Corey Wong and instead adds a bouncy flavor even though the song does not swing in the strict sense (eg. a 12-bar blues). I’m thinking Nile Rodgers on Get Lucky or Jamiroquai’s Little L.

What do you think?

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the faster you get the more the swing comes from articulation/accents and less from timing differences

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So swinging 8th notes makes them alternate in duration, there the first is (say) 33% longer and the second is 33% shorter. At slow speeds this should be evident, but what happens when it is faster, can people still tell? And in those cases, does one accent the longer note?

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Also the faster it is the harder it is to do.
Yeah I know it’s the cliche example.

Ultimately swing in popular music traces back to jazz and through that to practices predominant in older French classical performance (which is probably how it crept into jazz).

There’s definitely a tempo past which it’s pretty non noticable or starts creating rhythmic illusions due to how our ears perceive sound.

Other than that would be going for riffs that have a wild syncopation to their rhythm like the famous one in Metallica’s Disposable Heroes.

Or a more recent example from Arch Enemy’s “Sunset Over the Empire”

These would be more the metal equivalents to the funk/disco/reggae skank rhythm syncopation.

The entire Meshuggahcore genre essentially does this. Wild off kilter rhythms from messing with the timing to me this is far more manageable at breakneck tempos than swing.

The whole point of swing is to accent beats for dancing it’s hard to dance to something past a certain BMP at that point syncopation is more effect imo. See all the electronic genres that rely on the sped up Amen Break as their core.

Also probably why metal when they want the crowd to dance has traditionally slowed the tempo down in those sections or relied on slower tempos throughout.

System of a Down is excellent at the mid tempo dancing approach.

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status of my sides: in orbit :joy:

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Great insight! Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Swing if often described as a feel rather than a given metric, so I’m going to experiment a little bit to see if some accent game helps me get to the bouncy stuff at faster tempos.

I think it has a lot to do with keeping up with whatever the drummer is doing, and given that they can groove at crazy speeds very naturally, it complicates everybody else’s life LOL.

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I would definitely advise exploring some eastern folk musics as they tend to have very interesting syncopated rhythms, this is a big reason SOAD are naturals at what I was describing it comes from their Armenian musical influences.

This guy gets it.

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I guess before advising anything, it’s helpful to consider what our core components here are:

  1. Assuming an “on-the-beat” downbeat, the exact placement off the offbeat. This 1 minute video is a good representation of the type of possibilities in this respect:

The MIDI standard is of course ~66%, the “triplet feel,” blues shuffle etc. You could argue that that is “default” swing feel.

  1. The placement of notes relative to the pulse regardless of #1 above: that is, overall being “ahead” of the beat or “behind” the beat.

  2. Accents, like @Prlgmnr said. I can’t speak for all genres, but in jazz, a lot of the “swing” can come in the accents and placement re #2, and not necessarily from the triplet thing. Lead/melody playing might sound “swung” when it more so has syncopated sequences of accents. This is part of why standard MIDI/sequenced kind of stuff doesn’t necessarily “swing” as well as humans. But when folks get more specific about programming accents and beat placement, it can improve.

In my listening experience, as tempos increase, the swing % thing of melody playing, especially on guitar, tends to straighten out.

It would be useful to do some deep (and maybe even slowed-down) listening to the type of music/lines you’re thinking of and try to do some analysis of what you’re hearing relative to those three components. It’s going to be different depending on the player and context. Sometimes the playing might not even be swung, but the band is swinging, so the music sounds swung.

Example of that here in McCoy Tyner’s solo on “Inner Urge.” We don’t hear “triplet feel” in Tyner’s 8th notes - they practically sound straight. But listen to the ride cymbal, there’s more of that triplet thing present there, though subtle. A little easier to hear all this when you slow the clip down.

(Hard to listen to this track and hear it as “not swing” - it is definitely “swinging”, even though there are straight 8th notes present as well)

In my 3 part list above, I personally think of #2 as the hardest to “practice.” But for #1 and #3, if, through analysis, you have an idea of what is actually going on in the music you’re thinking of, I do think a lot of it comes down to going slow and speeding up. Part of the reason for this is that it’s a hearing and thinking thing before it becomes a physical playing thing. One has to be able to audiate the intended accents and placement before they can just force their hands to do it. it’s helpful to get comfortable with these variables while working on simple riffs or one note grooves rather than longer, complex lines that cross strings in non-patterned sequences.

Personally I find keeping swing going and picking every note to be quite difficult when it gets “fast.” But utilizing a mix of slurs and picked notes is smart if we want to use accents to help us create a feeling of swing.

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Thank you for the detailed analysis! I’ll definitely listen more carefully to become familiar with all those nuances that make music swing, regardless of speed or the triplet feel.

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Talking about swinging with accents… :hushed:

https://youtube.com/shorts/YKUDpCU0wSs?feature=shared

Incredible.

That’s basically Bill Evans at that point, hahaha

Accented classical rhythms.

Many don’t realize EVH’s solo playing swings like mad. It’s obvious in his rhythm playing, of course.

When you slow it down, even Eruption swings. A lot harder than you think.

So much feel at warp speed.