How Does Two-Way Pickslanting Not Also Include Some Stringhopping?

Playing Technique
#1

Hey all,

I have a theoretical question about two-way pickslanting. How does use of two-way pickslanting not include some level of stringhopping-type movement.

Assumptions:

  1. For upward escape motions, the movement is 10-4 on the clockface approximately.
  2. For downward escape motions, the movement is 2-8 on the clockface approximately.
  3. On the High E string, you play three notes with the following pickstrokes: Down (in upward escape “position”), Up (in upward escape “position”), Down, whereby you “rotate” on that last downstroke to the “downward escape” position to get the next note on the B string.

When going from the “Up” (second pickstroke) to the “Down” (the third pickstroke, where you rotate), aren’t you doing a stringhopping-type movement?

In other words you are going from 10 on the clockface (the apex of the upward escape), to zero, then up to 2 on the clockface. You are using your extension/flexion wrist muscles for both movements.

Isn’t that a stringhopping movement? Or because it just happens once per string, it doesn’t matter? shouldn’t you rely on cross-picking instead (whereby you “flatten the curve,” as we say nowadays, on one side?).

I can think of a bunch of other examples here. Here is example two:

  1. On the G string, play 12th fret with a downstroke. hammer-on to 14th fret.
  2. on the B string, play the 12th fret with an upstroke.
  3. on the G string, play the 14th fret with a downstroke, pull-off to 12th fret.
  4. on the D string, play the 14th fret with an upstroke.

rinse, repeat.

if you use two-way pickslanting for this, the clockface movements require you to do a lot of repeated flexion/extension movements. so wouldnt two-way pickslanting not be a valid approach here? should you, again, rely instead of crosspicking here instead?

Confused!

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#2

I anticipate another apology from Troy about unleashing the term ‘2WPS’ on us coming soon…unless he’s already busy getting our magnets built :grin:

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#3

I think the shortest possible answer is that you may be thinking about “mixed escapes” wrist playing? E.g. a default downstroke escape (DSX) movement, with occasional double escape (DBX)?

Then no string hopping is needed there in principle :slight_smile:

for example, let’s assume you are in a pronated arm position like Molly Tuttle / David Grier:

  • pure deviation (9-3) gives you DSX
  • occasional addition of extension on the upstroke (10-3) gives you the DBX pickstrokes

No “muscle reuse” is needed in the motions like the above (i.e. U and D use different muscles at all times)

I may have gotten the details wrong as I wrote a bit quickly, but hopefully the general idea is clear :slight_smile:

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#4

true but this isn’t how the concept is presented in the two way pickslanting section of the pickslanting primer

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#5

I see, are you referring to the “conquering the scale” lessons? I know @Troy wants to update them soon - but they still represent a perfectly valid alternating method with no muscle reuse (it’s just that the movements involved are perhaps more complex than the wrist-only ones):

The idea is that the transition between USX and DSX setups could be done, in principle, by twisting the forearm to switch between pronation/supination as needed.

So (again in an idealised scenario), your wrist could be doing pure deviation at all times, and on top of that we can regulate usx/dsx by alternating between pronation and supination with the forearm.

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#6

Stringhopping is when you use the same muscles for upstrokes and downstrokes. When you do this with the wrist, which is the most common way we see it here on the forum, it generates a bouncy, vertical-appearing motion that feels tensiony and is slow. In the Primer scale playing examples I’m using a mix of wrist and forearm motions which are pretty fast and smooth, so there’s no stringhopping there.

Called it! That said, to give us some credit, we do demonstrate the motions I’m actually making. But calling those motions “two-way pickslanting” is super vague because it doesn’t really have anything to do with “slanting” the pick. It’s just a sequence of joint motions I’m using to get over the strings. A better name for that section might be something like “One Wrist-Forearm Approach For Playing A Scale”. This isn’t the only way to play a scale, and it shouldn’t be presented as the only way to play a scale, although it is certainly one way and it works fine.

The clock face numbers only explain wrist motion. They don’t say anything about forearm motion. There’s no rule that you have to use wrist motion for scale playing, and again, in the Pickslanting Primer I’m using a mish mash of wrist and forearm motions. We could go back to that old footage and try to spec out exactly which joint motion I’m using for which string change, and say, ok this pickstroke looks like such-and-such clock motion which is purely wrist, whereas this next pickstroke looks like another wrist motion but with a tiny amount of forearm also doing something. But I don’t know how helpful that would be in terms of helping someone actually play those examples.

Out there in the real world, a lot of motions are blends of things, as they are in these scale examples. And those blends of things may even change depending on the phrase the individual is playing. Just as an example, look at all the form posts asking why my arm position or motion changes when I’m on the low strings versus the high ones. So the best way to teach a lot of this stuff ends up being more big-picture. You show someone the pick grip, arm position, and anchor points you’re using. You show them how to get the motion going in general terms. And you give them some tips on what it should feel like and look like when done correctly. The smaller details may vary somewhat based on lots of smaller variables from individual anatomy to small variations in positioning, but those bigger picture details shouldn’t change much.

That’s the approach we’ve tried to get to in the most recent Primer updates, like the wrist motion section and especially the “Forearm Wrist” section which is very plaing English and hands-on in its presentation. We’ve taken most of analysis-y stuff like clock face and put it in its own more mechanics section. Those insights have been immensely helpful to me in terms of both figuring out how to do these motions and trying to boil them down into the more hands-on explanations we present in the tutorials. But it’s totally fine to start with just the tutorials themselves without getting too distracted by the technical explanations as well.

Sorry for the confusion here and we’ll be streamlining and simplifiying over time.

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#7

Lol! In my mind, you guys should never feel the need to say things like this. What you’ve done for guitar pedagogy is absolutely astounding. Even if you introduce a term or concept that you think is a little confusing, we’re still all way better off now than we were. Plus, you’re constantly re-evaluating and making things better. It’s all good, my friend!

I totally get the concept of needing to make sure we see how the pick is traveling instead of getting caught up with how the hand it setup. I also get that some players may solve it by having more visible motions than others. For some, it may look like (and even be) that they are changing slants. For others like Andy Wood, it’s more hidden. Still, the fact that for certain lines, like a plain old scale, needing to have parts where that pick trajectory must change in order to maintain high speeds is something I never ever thought of prior to you guys cracking the code. I give you guys all the ‘credit’ in the world. Thanks again for your amazing product/platform and keep up the great work.

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#8

I understand what you mean but when the product says one thing and I say something else on the forum, that’s bad design and the kind of that that would annoy me as a customer, regardless of how amazing the company is. This is what I’m apologizing for. We’ll iron it out shortly!

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#9

Thank you, Troy!

Yeah, I think the two-way pickslanting part is the most outdated, especially the depiction of the pick in the “down-up-rotate” section which lead me to believe it was all in how the pick is angled (angle it down for downward pickslanting and upward for upward pickslanting).

really the pickslanting term itself should be abandoned, even calling it the pickslanting primer is misleading (though catchy). in my mind, it’s really about the movement of the wrist through the X and Y axis, even if you have no pick slant at all.

#10

Pickslanting is a real thing. The pick must be angled for certain motions to work right. If you were to do a single escape motion with the pick perpendicular, one of the pickstrokes would be louder and more grabby than the other, and it would sound and feel unsmooth. We’ve seen a recent example of this in Technique Critique.

So we can’t just sweep this under the rug. However we can let the instruction on pick grip and arm position and motion lead the way here, which should reduce the confusion. As to the name of the product, we should just call it “Fred” to future proof for any new knowledge we happen to acquire!

#11

Very true, I used to play with an almost completely perpendicular pick angle. Okay, fair enough!

Back to the topic at hand, I made a video. Can you tell me if any stringhopping is happening?

Also, why does this sound so bad? It feels really unnatural and uncoordinated, especially when playing at slower speeds, and the volume and clarity completely drops when speeding up. And finally, when switching from the E to B string, sometimes its like I’m barely hitting the B string (and more like skimming its surface!). Thank you in advance!!

#12

This sounds like you’re trying to do the Journey “Don’t Stop Believin’” lick but fretted three notes on the top string and one note on the lower string. You know this is going to require some kind of double-escape motion to get that one note by itself, right? The repeated inside picking you’re doing is specifically a double escape phrase that can’t be done any other way. What picking motion are you shooting for here?

Have you backed up and mastered any simple single escape or single string lines yet? Like, locked in, hands-synched up, smooth and consistent attack at a fast tempo, and so on? I’m not saying everyone should always start that way. I’m all for giving at a shot with these more complex types of phrases. But if you’re finding that the foundations of speed, fluidity and attack aren’t yet present, that’s probably where I say back and up get at least those basics going on with a simpler phrase first.

#13

Thanks, Troy!

Yeah, I realized this sounds like the Journey lick too. I was just trying to play a line that would be challenging. To answer your questions/respond to your post:

  1. Upward escape lines are very easy for me;

  2. Downward escape lines are harder if it is two notes per string but somehow much easier when three notes per string (like that Sixes Diatonic Ascending lick from Strunz & Farah); and

  3. As for what picking motion I’m doing: Aren’t I doing a double escape? I’m hitting the upstroke on the B string with a 9 o’clock on the clockface and then, after hitting the high E, moving my wrist to the 2 o’clock for the downward escape.

Mechanically, my wrist seems to do this automatically so I’m not consciously thinking about it, which is a good thing, but it still sounds bad haha

Am I off-base? What picking motion do you see? Am I stringhopping? I’ve been struggling with licks like these for a while but I feel like I understand the motion mechanically and have the core mechanic down autonomously.

#14

Yes for the inside picking thing you are doing double escape. That’s the only way that can be done. You’re not super bouncy there either which is good. I just wanted to make sure that you’re aware that there’s a difference between single and double escape, and most players who have watched our stuff don’t just randomly choose any sequence of fretted notes and hope to be able to play it.

When you speed up I don’t think you’re doing double escape any more. So that’s one thing. You’re not going to just blaze through this phrase making that motion. And two, the tone disappears so that’s a problem that you sould fix right now with a simple, single escape phrase, single string if necessary.

What is going on at :17 seconds in this clip? You’re not playing fast but there’s very little sound. This sounds like a hand sync issue. If you play fast on an open string do the notes still disappear? If not, then it’s hand sync. If they disappear even with the open string, then it’s pick attack.

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