I’m curious: When you play a 3NPS scale, what are the maximum number of fingers that you have down on strings at one time, and why?
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When I practice I intend to only do 1 finger at a time that actually applies pressure, and if the speed is slow enough, only 1 finger is touching the string. As the speed / difficulty increases, there might be portions where multiple fingers are touching the string(s), but not exerting pressure.
Assuming the large portions where we are ONLY ascending (or ONLY descending) the answer should be one. Anything else isn’t maximally efficient. @Tom_Gilroy has written about this extensively. For maximum fret hand efficiency a finger should fret, then empty its tension. In the 3nps premise of the OP this allows each finger to rest for 2 notes so it has plenty of time to recover and fret again.
As we ascend, if we leave all our fingers down until it is time to change strings, we’ll have to “rush” to lift these fingers from their planted position as we move to the next string. This can also cause hand sync issues at high speeds.
Descending is similar. It may seem like a nice idea to have all the fingers planted and then lift them off as we need them. Aside from the exception I’ll note below, this becomes costly over time as we’ll need to rush to set these fingers up every time we change strings. Also, this can mess with hand sync.
About that exception–Now, at some point in the scale we will need to change direction. So at that point it makes sense that all three fingers will be down, then lift them off (i.e. empty tension) to begin the descent. From there, we should resume the “one down at a time” rule.
And after writing that I can’t believe I forgot about caveats haha! Especially since I’m ‘picky’ about descending legato (in the context of classical guitar).
There is a certain tone quality in descending legato that can only be achieved by having the finger of the next “lower” pitch already down. The “higher” pitch will then pull down (as opposed to lift straight off) and this is similar to a rest stroke as it sort of ‘plucks’ the string as it comes off. We get the same sonic benefits of a rest stroke with this too - nice round tone. It’s less apparent in electric lead with distortion but in acoustic (steel string or classical) or clean channel electric the timbre is pretty noticeably different. Also, mostly talking classical here, there isn’t a drop in volume when pulling straight down like this. Doing ‘lift offs’ on a classical guitar makes for all the notes (besides the initial plucked note) sort of drift away because they are much more quiet.
I’d made a video about this, since sometimes it’s hard to describe things that are more easily demonstrated:
Not great playing or anything but it illustrates the technique of pulling more down
In that situation, when descending doing a 3nps scale, we’d have a max of 3 fingers down at once (or at least 2). There wouldn’t be hand sync implications, BUT I do think this early preparation would cause a speed limit in scalar playing. That’s not an issue because there isn’t much lightening fast playing in classical, at least not like we see in electric guitar virtuoso music. Even though it’s less efficient (though required due to the timbre/volume aspects outlined above) it still allows us to play fast enough for what’s in the repertoire.
You’ve covered my basic recommendations already, but I might write some more up tomorrow.
I’d say it’s fast enough for most electric guitarists too…
BTW @joebegly, it seems to me that your 4th finger is held in slight opposition. This requires constant activation of opponens digit minini, which is a small intrinsic muscle of the hand.
Thanks for pointing that out @Tom_Gilroy . I should probably book a proper lesson with you to help me optimize my fret hand. I do think I have general issues with my pinky that could be the result of injury though. It doesn’t move nearly as freely as my right hand pinky and I’ve actively tried drills to help with coordination between 3/4. There are various places in the range of motion, if I try to slowly curl my LH pinky where it sort of ‘snaps’ into positions uncontrollably. I’ve had numerous ‘finger jams’ as a young teenager on that finger during basketball. Also, I used to religiously do an extreme stretching drill of Rusty Cooley’s that never felt very good. That could have added to the injuries.
I think I’ve mentioned this before on here but there is no posture I can find that allows me comfortably fret the first 3 notes of a minor scale using fingers 1 3 4 with any speed at all. I know, (that you know that I know), that’s a weak combo BUT it should still be possible to generate decent speed with that combo and for me it’s just laughable. I just avoid it all costs and have found very few phrases where I actually need to use 3/4 for fast playing. I can almost always get by with 1 2 3 or 1 2 4.
All that said, it’s also highly possible I’m just not optimizing angles and I can make the most of what I’ve got.
Would need a camera to really prove it, but pretty sure for me its two, as my pinky is about to fret the index lifts up and during fretting the index shifts to the other string. Decending is different cus I use a pulloff.
Same for all finger combos.
I’d be delighted to work with you, but I’m happy to keep give some thoughts if you have a short clip of you trying the problematic minor scale shape.
I have greater anatomical dependence between the 3rd and 4th fingers on my left hand than on my right. I’ve never had any injury that I’m aware of, and the left hand has had much more training.
That said, injury history can definitely affect your playing. I dislocated my right shoulder in August 2020 and I felt like my tracking mechanics really took a hit. It’s (mostly) recovered now, but there’s always the possibility that I’ll need a surgery at some point in the future. Hopefully at least one of the picking movements I have developed will still be mostly functional if there’s long term consequences.
Anyone have any recommendations for correcting this? Just being very aware of your movements?
I was briefly experimenting with trying to switch to the one finger held down per note rule last night and could quickly see and feel the benefit, even in a few minutes!
In shameless self promotion I always link my hand sync drill for this type of thing
The periods where the tremolo stops, the fretting hand should just become a motion that’s constantly moving
Feels like two but it’s really just one for me. The lift off on the previous note is very subtle, still there to mute on the sting change especially.
I don’t get it.
How the “one finger at a time” approach requires less effort ?
For instance, on a 3 nps ascending scale, if you apply pressure with finger 2 to go from 0 (open) to fret 7, more force is needed than going from fret 5 already fretted by finger 1 and fretting fret 7 with finger 2.
Then you continue the 3 nps motion with finger 4 on fret 9, as finger 2 is still applying pressure to 7, in the same time naturally lifting finger 1 to prepare for going to the ascending string.
That makes “two fingers” at a time applying pressure, but only providing the “open to fretted” effort once per string, instead of 3 times per string.
By which mechanism the “one finger at a time” approach should be more effective ?
This is a good question, and I want to answer it thoroughly. I’ve thought about these problems in a lot of depth.
The issue here is that the binding constraint isn’t effort (force, measured in Newtons), it’s time.
The force required to fret a note (at the twelfth fret) is in the range of about 0.35N to 3.5N. The lower end of the spectrum is a 24.75" scale electric guitar strung with 8s and low action, the upper end is a 25.5" scale acoustic guitar strung with 14s and high action.
That’s quite a wide range, and it’s not reasonable to assume that any solution is optimal across the entire range. However, to put those figures into persepctive, key weight on a typical keyboard is about 0.5N with a typical playing force of 4N - 40N, and on a violin the fingering force is in the range of 1.5N - 4.5N.
Peak pinch grip force in adults range (elderly women to strong men in their prime) from about 30N to 90N with a typical values of about 50-70N, while power grip forces are much in excess of that, with a range of about 150N to 600N and a typical values of about 300-500N.
What I’m trying to communicate here is that even a guitar that is “hard to play” isn’t particularly hard to play compared to other instruments. With optimal alignment of our grip forces (which of course depends on context), the instrument is well within the comfortable range of force production for any adult.
In this specific scenario you can divide the labour of generating fretting forces between two fingers (as you have outlined). It can even be valuable in some contexts.
The first issue is that this only applies in the context of ascending on a single string. In most other contexts, the division of labour simply isn’t possible, and fingers must be able to generate sufficient fretting forces individually. If the string is fretted by a single finger at any point during this specific scenario, the lone finger must generate the total fretting force, reducing the benefit of dividing labour.
Further, by maintaining fretting contact with two fingers, we limit the maneuverability of the entire fretting hand. Two points of fretting contact results in much lesser freedom of the fretting hand than one point of fretting contact.
Finally, by maintaining fretting pressure with two fingers, we negatively affect the recuperation time of the first finger before it’s reuse. The sequence which must occur between generic fretting actions with one finger is release, relocate and re-fret. There are some specific situations where it’s possible to remove one or even all of these steps, but they are not the general case.
Better managemant of the binding constraint, greater freedom of movement and greater recuperation.
Very thorough, thank you for the response.
Indeed, practicing 3 nps while maintaining fret contact might cripple the ability to play more complex fretting-hand scenarios.
We must diversify our practice by varying patterns and groupings. We should avoid mass practicing the up/down linear scale so that we do not over-specialize our fretting hand to always maintain fret contact.
Three fingers down.
Consider the A minor scale, starting with the index finger on the A note at the 5th fret of the low E string. As I progress, I employ my ring finger for the B note on the 7th fret and my pinky for the C note on the 8th fret, establishing three fingers down. Why bother lifting them? To me, such an action seems inefficient. When descending from this position (C, B, A), my fingers are already in the optimal arrangement, making it far more practical than the alternative of lifting and repositioning with each note. This approach not only streamlines the playing process but also minimizes unnecessary effort.
Because you need to play more than those three notes in actual music.
Maybe, maybe not. If it’s something else, a new approach might be needed. But I thought this was specifically about 3NPS. And in that case, I don’t know why anyone would bother lifting their fingers. In fact, I would argue that’s bad technique. Batio sure doesn’t do it that way: https://youtu.be/bY36CftODIA?t=1063
Three notes per string, not three notes on one string only.
Read my earlier comments. Leaving fingers pressed down reduces the time available for those fingers to release, re-locate and fret a different note and limits the freedom of the entire fretting hand.
You would be arguing that Allan Holdsworth and Shawn Lane had bad fretting hand technique.
You’re making a classic mistake in inference here. You’re seeing something in a slow demonstration and assuming that the fast playing is the same but faster. Slow down the fast playing instead.