How many people in the world can play this way? (< 1000)?

Playing Technique
#1

I had always assumed that MANY people had developed advanced alternate picking technique (Gilbert, MAB, Di Meola level picking), but with the advent of internet video, as a percentage of players worldwide, it may be smaller than I had imagined. I’m trying to get an accurate read on how rare this kind of playing actually is.

Statistically speaking, even if only a small fraction of guitar players manage to develop this level of technique, given the millions of guitar players over the past 50 years, there should still be a sizable number.

Intuition tells me that if someone develops technique to this level, that there will be a paper trail; recordings and/or videos of their playing. What are the chances that someone would develop this level of playing and NOT share a video?

I certainly haven’t listened/watched everything online, but in the rock genre, there are perhaps < 50 professional players at this level who have achieved this level of technique. (Maybe I’m WAY off…) Multiply that by ten to include other genres, the players I am personally unaware of and still we are left with a small number. < 500

Estimating how many “non famous” people who can play this way is going to be more difficult. It seems to depend on the likelihood that they will achieve any kind of recognition for their playing. It was probably true 30 years ago that if someone could play like Paul Gilbert, they would be in-demand, meaning that we saw/heard most of the people that could play this way. These days its hard to tell.

Anyone care to estimate how many people in the world have developed the highest level of alternate picking technique?

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#2

There is no “highest level”. Yngwie’s technique doesn’t fit Batio’s lines, Batio’s technique doesn’t fit Yngwie’s lines. Neither player’s technique fits Steve Morse’s lines and Steve’s technique isn’t similar to either of theirs! They can all do variations on each other’s lines but unless they duplicate each others mechanics they will not really be to play each other’s stuff as well as someone on our forum, for example, who spends all day copying their mechanics exactly. Nothing wrong with that! Diversity makes the world interesting.

In truth there are many pieces to picking technqiue and what we’re learning from the forum is that lots of people get parts of it perfectly right. They might just be missing pieces here and there.

Have faith in the masses - they are doing a lot more “correct” than you may realize.

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#3

I certainly haven’t listened/watched everything online, but in the rock genre, there are perhaps < 50 professional players at this level who have achieved this level of technique. (Maybe I’m WAY off…) Multiply that by ten to include other genres, the players I am personally unaware of and still we are left with a small number. < 500

Are you counting metal as a subgenre of rock? Technical death metal especially there are an insane amount of what I would call “high technique players.” Check out bands like Obscura, early Atheist, Cynic, post-Human Death, Necrophagist, Nile, Pestilence, Gorguts, etc. It’s a prerequisite to have insane chops to even be in the genre.

As for rock once you stray from blues and pentatonic scales the listener base declines hence why Van Halen is more popular than Malmsteen or even Rhoads era Ozzy or Sabbath is more popular than Deep Purple. For some reason harmonic minor has never caught on with the mainstream of rock.

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#4

I should have qualified what I meant by the highest level. I am referring to a player who has learned alternate picking technique at the highest level, someone who can perform at the YJM, EJ, MAB, PG, etc level. It certainly would include metal, fusion, prog, jazz, etc. i probably should have just said electric guitar.

In CTC parlance, this would probably mean having either copied or developed their own one-way pickslanting system, or who has mastered all the two-way pickslanting movements.

I’m probably one of those people that Troy mentioned, I’ve practiced alternate picking for years and my technique/knowledge has gaps. I have fast runs here and there, but I can’t shred indefinitely, with variety, without mistakes. I’ve just finished watching antigravity seminar and it has opened my eyes to what is happening, why decending runs are much easier for me, and why I never got it all under my belt.

However, the majority of that practice was done 15+ years ago before the proliferation of modern instruction and youtube sharing. (Before that I couldn’t afford lessons/videos, and once I started working, I didn’t have nearly as much time.) I don’t doubt that today there are MANY more, but I’m still wondering if we are talking about < 500 people.

I have no doubt that CTC will increase that number!

#5

I would guess the numbers are closer to 10,000 than sub 500.

There are super technically proficient players everywhere.

They are in every genre imaginable.

Guthrie Govan, Dan Huff, Steve Lukather, John McLaughlin, Birelli Lagrene, old Django two fingers Reinhardt. Have you heard the stuff Les Paul was playing in the 30’s and 40’s even before he got into all the elecrtonic effects wizardry? (the guy was a monster!).

There are lots of amazing country and blue grass players that can pick like lightning.

Many have the ability to play mind blowingly fast runs but do so sparingly. Many can pick every note but choose to play a combination of picked and legato notes for the musical effect. Satriani and Vai can both pick at the elite level but mix this up with hammer ons and pull offs through choice. Allan Holdsworth is legendary for his legato lines but that dude could pick like a mutha too when he wanted.

Turn on youtube and there a hundreds of videos of guys doing Petrucci, YJM, Paul Gilbert covers etc etc etc.

I am putting in hour upon hour of time (currently between 2 and 6 hours most days) trying to improve my picking after about 30yrs on a platau where I could pick certain things fairly quickly but others just fell apart.

The funny thing is, although I really want to improve my technique to the level where I CAN shred, I don’t actually want to shred non-stop as it is generally pretty musically uninteresting. I have listended to lots of shredders over the years, right back from YJM, Vinnie Moore, Tony MacAlpine, Greg Howe (all the 80’s and 90’s Shrapnel guys), Shawn Lane through to the newer breed. Without fail I find most of torturous to listen to. I heard the last Angel Vivaldi album the other day. The guy has monster technique and a great tone but the music sounded like someone warming up doing finger exercises; I didn’t hear a tune in any of it and it was rhythmically tedious. I listened to a couple of Shawn Lane albums again recently too; notably the live album. My jaw was dragging on the ground in awe at the technique… for the first song and a half then I was totally bored by the constant machine gun attack of notes raining down on my poor ears.

The thing is although I want to be able to play those lines for my own satisfaction the real driver for me is to have the ability in reserve and to be able to pull out a few killer lines every so often when appropriate to catch people’s attention. I four bar 32nd note run at the climax of some soulful B.B King licks is always going to grab your attention but if that’s whet is being played all night the listener loses interest and none of it is memorable.

Jeff Beck said it perfectly in a recent documentary. I can’t remember the exact words but it was close to “I always try and play the fewest number of notes possible to still make the musical statement.”

The technique should always be there tho serve the music rather than be an end in itself. Even the elite level alternate pickers are musicians not athletes.

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#6

The other day I asked why Yngwie always plays fast? My answer was, if I could play like Yngwie, I would never stop playing like Yngwie!

When I’m in the mood for Yngwie, I have his albums in constant rotation. It doesn’t hurt that he has collaborated with talented vocalists, so he’s not shredding non-stop.

That said, Yngwie has a large vocabulary of techniques and musical ideas, enough that he can keep going without tiring out (my) ear. I’m not always in the mood for him, but when I am, I’d rather listen to a whole album of his intense playing. If his albums were padded with balads, I’d probably skip over them.

Personally, I don’t think that shredding non-stop is the problem, its players who don’t have a large enough vocabulary (or writing chops) to keep it interesting. So the goal is not just to learn the licks so you can use them occasionally, but to develop enough facility that your vocabulary grows large enough to keep that kind of playing interesting.

This is why I make the distinction of being able to play “at the level of”… I don’t doubt there are alot of guys who get through the exercises, can play the licks, but maybe never actually break them out because they aren’t fully integrated into their playing. Which is also why I think the number is quite small.

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#7

The problem with trying to define "how many people play “at the level of…” is that it’s way to generic to define the level. In every field there are always a small number of people that are outstanding at what they do but usually the gap between the absolute world beaters and the next level is extremely small. The thing that sets someone like Paul Gilbert are Al DiMeola aprat from the next level isn’t that they are necessarily technically more advanced but that they also have something musically interesting to say. I don’t mean that as; they have a wider vocabulary. I have as wide a vocabulary as many top selling authors but I don’t know how to use it to write a best selling story. There are plenty of people with the ability to draw and paint as well as Picasso, Dali, Monet etc in terms of technique and vocabulary but the great masters had something artistic that set them apart. With the world famous guitar gods it’s their artistic flair not their technique that sets them apart.

I still think the number of people who can pick “at the level of…” is well into the thousands and probably tens of thousands world wide. But the number of genuine artists that can communicate a musical statement that people want to listen to is inevitably a much smaller number.

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#8

I partially agree, but I think guitar vocabulary is different than writing vocabulary.

When we develop our chops as lead guitar players, we are building a “system” of techniques. When we improvise (or use our system to write solos), the strength of the art we create is a reflection of the system we were able to develop/ingrain into our playing. Its not just the volume of phrases, but our facility in putting them together and/or modifying them to fit the context.

Lets say I decided that I want to be an identical clone of Yngwie. I would need to copy and develop every single one of his techniques. If I listened to every one of his albums and cataloged the techniques, I would probably be able to identify 15-20 phrases/movements that he uses (obviously with variations) frequently, with probably 20-40 phrases that he uses infrequently.

I would probably also recognize patterns, for instance following phrase A, he usually follows with B, then C, then back to A. Notation could be developed to describe his approach to solos.

Of course, I wouldn’t be able to use any of the phrases/licks I’ve learned over the past 25 years unless Yngwie played them.

I contend that if someone was able to copy Yngwies “system”, that they would make similar artistic choices when writing, riffing, or improvising. The reason people aren’t able to “shred” as effectively is because they haven’t developed the facility with as many techniques. Instead of developing a system, they have a collection of “phrases they were able to play”.

I believe the impediment is mostly physical (including volume of technique), otherwise we would have thousands of exact Yngwie clones. IOW, the “systems” are out there and just need to be copied, yet so few people are able to.

#9

I think that’s an inherent danger in studying technique - if you spend hours a day trying to develop ‘face melting chops’… then why wouldn’t you use them when writing/performing music? I too find most ‘shredders’ boring to listen to after the initial ‘wow look at that’ feeling has worn off (usually a minute or two at best)… but still I do practice technique. I do it in a very unfocused way though - I never sit down and think ‘I want to play 16th notes triplets at 160 bpm today’, instead I tend to write little licks, arpeggios and sequences I like the sound of and then I work at playing those cleanly at various tempos. I find chasing the sounds in my head is more fun for me than aspiring to a particular level of technical proficiency.

It’s my opinion that a lot of guitar players fall into the chasing technique trap and end up making music that’s only really interesting to other guitar players. A lot of instrumental guitar music sounds to me like someone running scales over a backing track, even from major stars in the field. Few are as good as composers as they are at just playing the instrument and that imbalance rarely makes music that’s satisfying to most people. Not saying that’s ‘bad’ of course but I definitely think it’s a thing that happens very often to guitar players more than maybe any other instrumental players.

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#10

I totally agree with everything you said. However, I do also think that there is a certain point of entry in terms of technique and potentially efficient ways of getting your technique to the starting line as it were. For me that seems to be taking a specific phrase which targets a specific technique then running it at increasing tempo until I can’t go any faster then dropping back to a more manageable tempo to bed it in. Repeating this over time has pushed the maximum tempo for some of these phrases from c.120bpm (16ths) to c.200bpm but only for limited phrases so far.

For me personally, I feel I need to do that for a certain period to get the basics nailed then the next logical step is to start writing musical phrases which interest your ear and using the basic facility learned already to work on playing them at whatever tempo you deem necessary.

I have been a DWPS player for over 30 years (without knowing it and struggling to apply my technique to TWPS phrases) but I want to develop TWPS as most of my ideas come from the same school as players such Al DiMeola so refingering everything for DWPS isn’t attractive to me. The thing is I find UPWS a very unnatural movement so need to spend a great deal of time still doing some of the boring stuff to ingrain the basic feeling of that to the point that it becomes almost as natural as my DWPS orientation. Not only do I need to get comfortable with it but I also need to figure out how get comfortable AND still be able to actually mute while in a UWPS orientation.

Until now I have been focusing almost exclusively on just drilling the basic movements for several months and monitoring my progress. However, I have now started to do exactly as you describe and create little phrases which I want to play for their sound then trying to get them under my fingers.

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#11

I hear what you are saying and sort of agree with much of it. However, I don’t think the reason we don’t have thousands of Yngwie clones is because people can’t do it or haven’t developed a system but because they choose not be a clone of Yngwie (or anyone else for that matter). If you have developed that level of technique which clearly many thousands of players have then why would want to be a clone of anyone? You are clearly very driven and driven people tend not to want to clones of anyone.

There are clearly many many thousands of players who can alternate pick a vast vocabulary of musical phrases at speeds in excess of 16ths at 200bpm. That is seriously fast in musical terms. Yes, there are people who can play the same phrases at 250bpm of faster but for me personally that is entering the realms of sport rather than music.

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#12

Yngwie is a Paganini clone (sorta). He took existing classical phrases and worked them into a rock guitar system.

As a baseline, everyone should be choosing a player like Yngwie, learning their system (how they link phrases, how they composes solos), and then modifying it by adding his own discoveries and ideas. The problem is that 99.999% never learn or develop an advanced system, in the name of “originality”, they learn bits and pieces from everywhere and never make much of it. (Frankly)

In classical music, do players have this same kind of identity crisis? (OMG, what if I’m not original??!?) No, they don’t. Its perfectly valid to imitate the greatest players and learn their lessons, then possibly add their own flourishes.

I’ve played many years and have succumbed to many thought traps. The “originality” thought trap is one of them. “I’m not going to learn ____ note for note because then I’m compromising my originality and ability to create original music.”

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#13

The earliest technique method I got was Troy Stetina’s Speed Mechanics (cassette). I think I was playing 3 years when I got that and it was the only method that seemed to offer any hope of playing like Yngwie or Vinnie Moore. On one of the pages, he briefly talks about how to hold the pick and he suggests holding it as perpendicular as possible, otherwise one direction will be much easier at the expense of the other direction…

I never truly achieved blistering velocity, but my picking technique ended up slightly upward as a result. I remember a period of time where this made metal rhythm playing more difficult.

If you have been using DWPS for 30 years, have you considered using Troy’s “Volcano”, rules-based system? I am so impressed with Troy’s CTC seminars, they are like opening the textbook to the back and reading the answers. They also show that there isn’t one right way.

If I was a DWPS player, I’d proudly play that way keeping in mind the five rules Troy discovered.

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#14

Yep been through the originality trap myself. I spent years refusing to learn other people’s stuff because I arrogantly thought I could be an original “artist”. However, I finally gave in and decided to learn some other people’s stuff completely note for note a few years back - here’s some of the results if you’re interested; it’s not exactly shredding :wink: but the point was carefully disecting and learning from what others have done.

Anyway, I’m not sure that I agree everyone should be choosing a single player whether Yngwie or anyone else and learning their system. I would much rather learn bits of multiple people’s “systems”. Learning bits and pieces of multiple systems doesn’t mean you have to make nothing of it. In fact, quite the opposite.

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#15

The earliest technique methods were really little more than a series of exercises. The standard mantra was that you should play everything slowly and accurately then gradually build up the speed but always maintain accuracy. I went through several of these back in the day too including the Al DiMeola picking technique book. The problem (what stopped them being a true system) was that they never answered the question of how to change strings cleanly. Unless you know how to apply TWPS Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin’s stuff is pretty much unplayable beyond a very modest tempo. I hit a limit around 116 to 120bpm for nearly 30 years. The “solution” wasn’t copying a single player’s system just learning the basics of pickslanting. I could quite literally have worked at that “method” or “system” for the rest of my life working 10 hours a day and still never have gotten much beyond the level I was stuck at. I was actually prepared to do that in my younger days but the RSI injuries had another opinion :wink:

This takes me back to the basic premise that I still believe there are tens of thousands of players who have mastered an advanced picking system and the limits aren’t physical but merely technical. Some people figure this out for themselves others are like me and need someone to point out the blindingly obvious before they can move on to the next step. (by the way, the videos above were all shot before I started working on pickslanting so highlight the kind of limits I was struggling with at the time).

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#16

I had the Al DiMeola book too. The one with the white cover that had pink and blue shapes on it. (?) I seem to remember it had a good section on arpeggios, but the picking exercises were a source of much consternation. This book is not currently in my collection so I can’t review its contents. ( I suspect one of my room mates in college stole it.)

Upon further reflection, I think you may be right that a higher number of people achieved this level of technique. I had a wealthy friend in college who was taking lessons from a GIT graduate (1990-91). This guy was in a semi-prominent national metal band, and he knew all the guitar tricks.

I remember my friend (who owned the EJ Total Guitar video as well) talking about picking mechanics in ways that didn’t make sense to me at the time. He hadn’t incorporated it into his playing, but he had an intellectual understanding of it. IDK if he got this from his GIT instructor or the EJ video.

It occurs to me now, that by 1990/91, GIT graduates had access to the finer points of Paul Gilbert’s alternate picking and string switching technique (through coursework, their instructors, or the grapevine). How could you not be a GIT student during those years and not have deep discussions about the material?

I think it’s more likely that when PG, MAB, etc were making VHS video lessons, they didn’t enter into the finer points of string skipping technique for a number of possible reasons… 1) Not enough time in videos 2) They figured that anyone who practiced the exercises and watched the videos would figure it out… if they wanted it badly enough… 3) They weren’t eager to share all their “trade secrets” 4) They were partially insecure and sensed that more in-depth discussion on their insights on the subject could open a can of worms, especially if someone else made a video the following week with a better presentation.

I’m also reminding myself that after 1991, shred (guitar) died, and even if GIT grads knew this stuff, there was almost no market for it.

IOW, typical guys on the street didn’t have access to the finer points of two way pickslanting, but more advanced circles of players did.

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#17

To argue with my own point ( :slight_smile: ) here’s one example of a guitar player who has both scary chops and great compositional ability IMO. Yeah some of it does go off into ‘shreddy country’ but a lot of it is more about the overall music rather than purely a showcase for guitar technique.

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#18

All very good points. I think we can agree to agree :wink:

By the way

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IMG_05923024×4032 2.2 MB

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#19

I have the other book of his, with the white cover that ChrisX mentions. I like it in the sense that it offers a “lesson plan” that put emphasis in different skill sets in a structured way but there’s a some outdated stuff in the technique explanations. Still kinda of cool and it goes through chord shapes in a way that really shed some light on various 7th chord positions.

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