How much pick wiggle do you have?

Playing Technique
#1

I have extremely loose joints in my fingers. It’s called hypermobility but some call it double jointed. My fingers bend pretty extremely in all kinds of different directions and, in fact, I have only taught one or two students in 13 years of teaching who has fingers like to mine.

When I hold a pick, my joints will move with the pick pretty much regardless of how hard I grip it. It’s great for some things. Like scratch rhythm. But for speed picking…idk.

How much does the pick wiggle when you play?

I have noticed a decent amount of the pros seem to have some wiggle when slowed down under the Magnet. It hasn’t really stopped me from playing at a decent level, but I often consider if my loose joints are a curse.

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#2

My fingers aren’t particularly loose, though they have a little bit of wiggle.

One thing you can do to try to mitigate is get additional support from other fingers. I.e., use the middle finger as a backstop for the index finger, ring finger as a backstop for the middle. And while we generally talk about excessive tension as a bad thing, if you’re specifically trying to reduce wiggle, the more your muscles are pulling your fingers into the shape of a fist, the less wiggle you should have.

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#3

I think that’s why I kinda naturally grew to a closed light fist. If I recall correctly, didn’t Troy say in on of those videos that you want the pick to move around as little as possible?

#4

I don’t recall what Troy has said, but you get some players like MAB who have as little pick movement in the grip as possible, and preach that it’s important, meanwhile there are players like Mike Stern who have great success with quite a lot of wiggle. I think I’ve mentioned in another thread that I’ve seen Rob Chapman specifically preach in favor of a grip that has some wiggle.

Personally, I’ve found my own best results come from a grip that has very little wiggle, paired with a pick that has just a slight amount of flex. I really like 0.90mm Ultex sharp. 1.14mm ultex or heavier doesn’t feel right to me, and I’ve given it a fair shake. My “feels right” range of pick flexibility runs from 0.60mm tortex at the low end to 1.0mm ultex at the high end.

Maybe experiementing with picks of varying degrees of flexibility is another puzzle piece you could toy around with (if you haven’t lately).

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#5

Oh man I am constantly buying new picks. I really enjoy trying out new picks. I must have 60 different types of picks. The good old black jazz III usually makes its way back in rotation though. It’s good to hear some differing opinions on it. If anything, for some validation. I’m self taught as far as my technique goes. So I still think some things I do are wrong or could be modified for the better from time to time. There truly isn’t a one size fits all technique.

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#6

Any motion you see in the fingers of the players we film, like Andy Wood, Molly Tuttle, or Martin Miller, is voluntary. It’s not the force of the pick against the strings making the fingers do that, it’s them doing it under active motor system control, even if the players don’t realize it or think about it that way. Martin, for example, was not aware he was doing that until we did our first interview. The way you can tell is the finger motions will happen before a note is even played, not just when the pick is pressing against the string.

Finger motion is only a problem if you’re trying to use it as the source of your picking motion and it’s not working. Meaning, if it’s not smooth or not fast. We see that a lot. Some players, like Martin or Danny Joe Carter, do have very fast finger joint motion. So if that’s the case, no problem.

Do you have any video of you doing this? Happy to take a look.

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#7

I will try to get it on tape soon. (Wow…I definitely grew up in then 90s)

In my case, it is most definitely the force of the string causing the flop. The only thing that can minimize pick flop is a trigger grip. But that has always felt really unnatural to me and I don’t feel I have control of dynamics like I do with my normal grip (which looks almost identical to Martin’s)

#8

If you’re referring to pick flop where the pick itself moves, yes, that’s caused by the string. I use this and I think everyone should learn to modulate this as a tool, if they want total dynamics control — especially for softer playing.

Mike Stern is a great example among our interviewees, and he’s a trigger player. The flop in his case is almost certainly intentional given the delicate touch he goes for.

TLDR ain’t nothing wrong with a little flop!

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#9

Ok well this is good to know! I use a very floppy pick grip for playing soft dynamics. I worry sometimes if it flops too much for accurate speed playing.

#10

Not a problem at all. In fact, if you use a trigger grip and even if you grip it pretty aggressively, flop still occurs. Here’s an example at 225bpm for a bar or two, which is about as fast as I can play and only on simple patterns like this. Just because of the way the light is pointed, look at the pick and you can actually see the little flash of reflection when the flop occurs, even at high speed:

Crazy, right? Flop is not a thing to worry about, only a thing to learn to control.

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#11

Good to know. More stuff I can check off the “you’re doing it wrong list”

#12

I don’t have any advice other than I could swap you some stiffness! I have the opposite problem with arthritis. I’ll be doing the opposite of what your advised! Lol

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#13

Haha. Well that’s one thing I’m glad of with these loose joints of mine. I don’t have too much trouble with pain or stiffness. Painful story - I was at the gym a few years ago and obviously not paying attention. I was loading a 45 lb plate onto a machine and missed the bar. It fell straight down onto my right big toe. I think the only reason it didn’t break or sprain was because my loose joints cushioned the impact.

On a different note, if you haven’t already considered it, eating a diet low in sugar and grains can GREATLY improve joint discomfort. Beginning in about September, I was eating a “healthy” bodybuilder type diet consisting of lots of grains, lentils, low fat meats, etc. I was working out 3 days a week. I stopped lifting around December and my joints stayed extremely sore - sore knees, back aches, neck aches, sore hands and elbows.

I started eating a paleo diet right after Christmas with very little sugar, processed foods, grains or legumes. And all that pain has been either greatly reduced or eliminated. Not to mention clothes are fitting looser. Just my $.02 on the subject of joint pain!

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#14

We must be on the same wave brother, I started a low carb diet in January. I don’t need to lose weight but itsthat old white death I need to avoid. I was eating too much sugar. I also want to give up the painkillers so may be in six months of doing this I be able to. I looked at Paleo but it says grassfed beef and organic butter and I don’t even think i could find that where I live! I might look again though and see if there are alternatives. Thanks for the input!

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#16

Sorry accidentally sent it before I finished

Good job man. The benefits of eating paleo extend far beyond weight loss. Clearer mind. Digestive health. Clearer skin. Thicker hair. Reduced inflammation. Grains and sugar are at the very least questionable for most human beings.

It doesn’t have to be expensive grass fed stuff bro. No need to worry about that. Just buy the best meat you can afford/have access to. Also, don’t be afraid of the less desirable cuts that we tend to throw out as a society. Organ meats are much more nutrient dense than muscle meats. Liver, heart, tongue. These things sound gross to a lot of people but they are quite delicious. I always tell someone if you can eat a chicken’s boobs, you can eat the liver.

Main things

Swap starches for vegetables. So instead of rice and gravy with your roast, sautee any kind of vegetable in good healthy oil like olive or coconut oil.

Potatoes and sweet potatoes and fruit are ok too but maybe more sparingly than leafy green veggies.

And don’t be afraid of fat. Cut out fats from processed garbage food and freely eat good fats from nutrient dense foods like avocados, nuts, healthy oils, dark meats, skin, and healthy fats from good quality meat. Nothing wrong with a ribeye. Grass fed would be preferable (since it turns out that animals don’t thrive too well on grains either). But it’s absolutely not required.

Many times I’m surviving on regular old eggs from the store. Canned tuna. I try to buy organic/grass fed meats. But sometimes I can’t get to Whole Foods or whatever. So I just get the best I can.

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#17

There are several good books on the subject but you may wanna consider It Starts With Food by Melissa Hartwig. Great read that has tons of evidence to support the paleo way. Her whole message is that we can greatly increase the quality of our lives by changing the food on our plates. Melissa is the founder of the Whole 30 program, if you’ve ever heard of that. Its essentially paleo.

#18

Here ya go Troy. These are some of the motions I use. I held the camera with the left hand so its all on open strings, which is really awkward for me as I need the left hand to track the strings. So these aren’t a totally accurate representation of my technique. But close enough.

Tremolo test - USX forearm motion vs DSX elbow motion. These are generally the fastest motions I can make. But when I go for raw speed, my forearm tenses up a great deal. I have wondered if that has anything to do with the brachial muscle you were talking about for hyper picking.

The next video is string switching in slo mo. On open strings. Which is really rough for me. USX elbow vs DSX forearm.

When I am fully warmed up (which is absolutely not the case in these videos), pronated DSX is my fastest motion. But there is a caveat - I feel most comfortable with this technique on descending lines, as I naturally developed (unbeknownst to me until you showed up on the interwebs) a 2WPS technique like Martin Miller’s - USX for ascending and DSX for descending lines. Expect it’s not very reliable. Some days its pretty clean. Most its a hot mess.

However, I always do my palm muted metal stuff with supinated USX forearm rotation. This motion and the 2WPS economy stuff is where feel most comfortable and at home on the guitar. I can chug on power chords all day and feel very comfortable.

Despite it being super comfy for chugging, I have never felt comfortable playing lead with that supinated approach. I have always been very uncomfortable alternate picking and navigating strings, so I naturally gravitated toward my 2WPS and sweeping technique that is a hybrid of Martin Miller and Gambale. Even though it’s nowhere near as clean, I naturally gravitate to lines like Gambale plays.

Here is an example of my 2WPS system. This is pretty rough as I think I wore myself out doing the tremolo exercise. I’ve never looked at this technique slowed down. I’m noticing a great deal of inefficient motions and possibly string hopping.

Edit: Notice the “wind ups” in the second video? And notice the pick flop I mentioned? Especially when I switch to USX.