How to start applying DBX outside of rolls?

Playing Technique
#1

At the moment I’m pretty happy with my DBX progress when playing forward rolls and a variation of the forward roll. I learnt a beginner version of Red Haired Boy which I got sounding good but I think when I play it, I unknowingly switch to a more USX form as I’ve just started trying to learn Billy in the Lowground which uses more downstroke escapes and I’m having a hard time!

I’m thankful for having this highlighted to me so early on but does anyone have any ideas on how I could warp some of my forward rolls into something that has more single string lines? Definitely feels like my DBX motion vanishes as soon as I’m not crosspicking a roll :grin:

Rocky Top DBX Etude
#2

I made a couple video exercises about alternate pick/dbx.

Just on two strings, you can do both patterns with a single pick escape, but if you use alternate picking it becomes a double escape switching exercise, or a double DBX exercise. It’s not exactly professionally presented but the exercise should help if you want to do dbx on two strings.

If you want to create lines using it you just have to have an even number on one string followed by an odd number on another, thats what requires the switch if you use alternate picking. But for me honestly I’d just stick with a single escape for the majority of playing, and only add dbx when needed. But thats my preference.

Though the double alternate picking stuff like those examples keep your hand from turning into a single escape, think of it like a constant refresh of dbx.

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#3

you could try the 3rd movement in the awesome La Catedral by Barrios:

I’m working on (sections of) it right now. Cool because it’s got plenty 1nps string but also the occasional (musical) slur and some single note scalar stuff too. Obviously you’d pick it and not do it with fingernails like Ana :slight_smile: But at least it’s not an exercise and an actual piece of music.

I’ve also got an ‘ok’ arrangement I made of a bluegrass tune named “Rocky Top” that has a mix of scale/melody and 1nps (though it’s most 1nps). Let me know if you want tabs and/or just a short video of a crappy playthrough (I’m an amateur and I don’t see that changing lol)

Then if you’re feeling really adventurous you could always try this, or just the intro cued up here:

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#4

Great examples, thanks!

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#5

You can also do something as simple as two notes on one string and 1 on the other. You’ll get that double alternate picking going that will keep your hand from relaxing into a single pick escape, but in my opinion theres nothing wrong with that, the breakthrough I had years ago was a single pick escape is truly the best way to go. Some things like those chord rolls require dbx, but thats about it, why make it harder than it needs to be? Perhaps you’re doing pure alternate for a reason, I am to lazy for that lol And I also believe alterate picking takes your mind away from the fretting. But it might just be my own issue.

#6

Pretty sure some of those are DBX, I’d have to check.

What’s worked for me is to just think up of cool sounding lines, regardless of what the escape is. Chances are there will be some DBX required.

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#7

Yep those would require DBX or at minimum mixed escape. All solid ideas.

#8

DBX is just alternate picking right? Double escape. Alternate picking to me has always required two strings, tho I seen Guthrie Govan call alternate picking just up n down.

#9

It’s a motion where both your downstrokes and upstrokes escape as opposed to having a single escape motion like DSX and using a helper motion from your wrist or forearm (or something else like rotator cuff) for the occasional upstroke escape :slight_smile:

Andy Wood’s approach where he uses DBX for most things and DSX for his speediest things really appeals to me. I think I’ve heard Troy mention that he thinks this is what Chris Thile does as well!

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#10

I think at some point alternate picking was just classed as up n down, my guitar education is over the past 8 years or so, and I’ve always associated alterate picking with two escapes. I think it’s because the nomenclature has changed over the years so much, but troy has built up this whole dictionary that I’m more than happy to use, I still find the initial words I learned hard to stop using.

That videos great. The double strings probably require dbx, hard to pull off or hammer two strings, and acoustic.

#11

Terminology is important around here :slight_smile: Alternate picking just means picking up and down and I think that’s how most people relate to it. Especially because, even most amazing players that do a lot of these things aren’t aware of concepts like ‘escapes’. Yngwie plays some phrases that stay on one string but his hand sync is spot on and he’s constantly moving his pick down/up with no legato. This is alternate picking. Changing strings doesn’t really matter.

You can alternate pick but not be DBX. You can even play phrases that require escapes in both directions and still not be DBX (i.e. Andy Wood’s fastest playing, where he just needs occasional upstrokes but it’s mostly DSX, like @Jacklr mentioned). It’s not DSX because his pick strokes aren’t curved, he just occasionally uses some helper motion when he needs the upstroke (which isn’t often). That’s what Troy calls “mixed escape”.

DBX is where all the pick strokes are curved. All downs go up in the air, all ups go up in the air, but it’s sort of implied in Troy’s nomenclature that this is still a highly efficient motion. You can cross pick without having a DBX motion.

#12

If it’s essentially keeping your pick in a certain position to allow two curved double escapes, then the exercise I posted before will definitely train the muscles to be perked up and keep the pick quite straight relative to the strings.

When I’m practicing this now, there is a massive feel in the forarm of twisting, and the wrist is just keeping tracking on the strings. But it needs an anchor, anchoring on the bridge makes it work.

The bridge anchor is really important from what I can see. Thats what creates the curved double escapes. So perhaps thats the best advice? Anchor on the bridge.

#13

In my experience, it is both exactly as simple as that and also way more complicated than that lol! One of the reasons it’s more complicated is just like any escape motion - you can do it in quite a few different ways. There are all sorts of postures/grips etc that will allow for DBX. The trick is to not give into the old muscle memory of whatever single escape motion the player is accustomed to.

Assuming we’re talking wrist motion, sure. It’s as simple as keeping the pick relatively straight and just moving the wrist back and forth. But even still, there are supinated, pronated and nearly flat setups that all work and they all feel a little different. Even someone as experienced in this stuff as Troy is recently surprised himself - it’s in the new RDT section. He was demonstrating a fast tremolo and thought it was DSX but upon reviewing the filming it was a nice curved DBX.

The one thing for certain I do know is that folks get themselves into trouble when they attempt to make the motion curved. When done correctly it really does feel like the pick just moves back and forth.

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#14

I made a little video to explain my understanding. I am still learning this stuff too, so I hope you don’t feel I’m mudding your topic @Jacklr This is how I get a “DBX” motion tho. To me the bridge anchor is a key aspect. Tho MAB has a similar dbx motion as far as I know? from pivoting on two fingers. Like you say Joe

Using a pointed hard pick really seems to help me too with DBX. For USX stuff I like both pointed and curved.

#15

This certainly got me to start with, I don’t feel the smiley face motion at all at this point in the development of my motion.

Not at all, one big indicator for setting this motion up that I’ve learnt over the past couple weeks for me is having a bridge pin sit between my thumb and pinky heels :slight_smile:

#16

I feel it in my forarm, like I don’t acually feel in my forarm, but I feel it mostly comes from my forarm.

I do it on my lower palm, but I think as long as there is a pivot point, it will make DBX work, like how MAB has his pivot point by using two fingers on the body. Different strokes different blokes should be the CtC catchphrase lol!

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#17

@WhammyStarScream I think that motion you are describing is sort of a different family of motions of DBX. It’s wrist/forearm blend. I remember posts where Tom Gilroy talked about his DBX motion from his younger years and he said it was a very intentional semi circle. I haven’t seen @Jacklr’s motion yet but the way I do DBX isn’t rotational at all. It’s all wrist (though when it stops working it’s usually because my damn elbow wants to take over. Old habits die hard I guess. Back before I discovered Troy’s material, when I went my fastest it was an elbow motion.

#18

The elbow motion is something I see in Jason Beckers picking a lot. So I don’t think it’s in anyway bad, but it is a lot of mass to chuck around, and why he anchored with the pinky to keep control of it. Troy acually made a video on that concept talking about practicing guitar horizontally, or laying down. It takes gravity away in a sense and highlights your motions better. (Troy has made so many videos lol Searching for a needle…)

… I can’t find it. Maybe one of you guys know what I’m talking about.

The semicircle stuff is probably finger motion, but @Tom_Gilroy can comment on that.

Do you not feel it in your forarm at all? For me the bridge pivot point hides/transfers a lot of the forarm rotation into a different feel.

You say dbx for you isn’t in the forarm/rotational?

#19

Right. Elbow motion is awesome! I think some have even leveraged it for DBX. But I…can’t. It has an inherent DSX trajectory so unless “something else” happens, it ain’t gonna do DBX. I was just mentioning it being problematic, occasionally, in my DBX playing, which is entirely from the wrist.

No, the forearm rotation stuff you’re talking about is what I’m saying generates the semi circle. You can use “fingers” for DBX too. Martin Miller is great at this. I don’t know enough about it to comment on it other than in my playing I don’t use it at all.

Yes, because I’m concentrating on doing it the way either Andy Wood, Steve Morse or Molly Tuttle do their crosspicking. Those are the 3 ‘flavors’ I can do and none of those are rotational, they are from the wrist.

So I’m not saying DBX can’t be from a rotational mechanic. It absolutely can, and you mentioning you sort of pivot from the pisiform on the bridge is how I’ve heard/seen others do this motion. I’m just saying the way I do it, there’s not any visible rotation happening.

#20

What you can do is put a sticker on your forarm and see if it moves. If it moves at all the forarm is facilitating a lot of the wider perceived motions, you don’t even need a sticker just the hairs on your arm. A pivot is exactly that, a transfer of smaller motions into more exaggerated wider motions.