GG has the standard definition, alternating up and down movements. Effectively, alternate picking means no economy or sweep picking.
Double escaped picking us one way to get alternate picking, but it is not required.
I agree with you that while alternate picking makes sense on one string, it becomes much more interesting with two.
I know we chatted about this privately but just for anyone else reading this I’ll post the same video we discussed
I just don’t want people to get confused and think if their forearm isn’t rotating that they’re not doing DBX. There’s enough mysticism surrounding DBX as it is lol! There is a DBX mechanic that has a forearm rotation component to it. Tom gave a really nice video about it here.
That’s not the form I use though. Mine is completely from the wrist and there’s no (visible) forearm rotation like we see in Tom’s motion. Neither one is more correct than the other, it’s just like all the other stuff on here - try a variety of setups until one feels easier and go with that one.
There might be other implications when selecting (or striving for) a motion. For example, I needed one that allowed for palm muting but also the possibility of no dampening at all for lush clean arpeggios. That’s why I intentionally went towards the Wood and Morse flavors (even though the first thing that came naturally to me was the Molly Tuttle pronated setup, which I can’t figure out how to palm mute with lol). Still, I got the Molly form to work before moving onto the others. And that’s vital. It’s similar to why Troy has people start with a tremolo - establish a baseline of what ‘correct’ feels like.
This is the first movement I ever learned (when I was about fourteen or fifteen years old). Troy also made a lecture video on this movement type in 2018.
It’s very capable, but it seems to be quite an uncommon form. I had no idea that it was so unusual.
I think I mentioned this in the video, but this isn’t the motion that I use for most DBX applications anymore either, the attack is just too much for my taste most of the time. I still think it’s an excellent movement, I’m glad I can do it and I will always apprectiate that it taught me what “right” feels like.
This form requires more maintanence than my other movements. Speed was always easy, but there can be difficulties with accuracy and tracking. That wasn’t an issue when it was the only movement I had, I used it for everything and it was sharp. I don’t use it much any more and my facility with it has definitely decreased.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. The point of contact near the pisiform bone is quite small, so the area of tactile reference is quite small. Since I’m pivoting off that contact point, my awareness of the location of the pivot point and the zero point of the movement needs to be sharp. I also need to control the pick depth to ensure clean escapes, and I don’t have a tactile depth gauge.
I also used to use a lot of leading edge picking with pronounced thumb flexion. This means I could potentially have recruited thumb/finger movement to lengthen strokes and assist escapes at speed, but if I did it was entirely intuitive and unconsious. I am able to do thumb/finger movement quickly, so maybe that was happening, I really don’t know. The straighter thumb facilitates bracing the index finger against the middle for structural support in the grip, and allows for a quicker transition to hybrid picking.
Every now and then I imagine where I might be if I could travel back in time and teach my younger self what I know now. I’d have to admit, I’d also want to see my younger self perform this movement when it was at its best so that I could fully understand how I optimised it, and what has drifted away from that in the current version.
I totally agree with this for the wrist-only DBX movements. I don’t perceive any curvature when doing the wrist-only DBX movements, and I’m certainly not consciously trying to make a curved path.
I’m convinced that these forms incorporate a deflection mechanic. For example with a supinated position and a downward slant, the RDT motion produces the escaping downstroke. However, in the attempt to make the trapped upstroke, the movement gets deflected on collision with the string due to the mismatch between the movement and the pickslant. We accept that deflection and use it to generate the escaping upstroke.
I think it has to work this way, because if we try to “draw the curve,” we would require either that the muscle which creates the curvature be either continuously lightly engaged, or activated during both the upstroke and the downstroke phase.
There is that Steve Morse video where he states its rotational. And Troy points out the visual disappears. I think for at least this type of dbx the rotation is there but because it’s using a pivot it becomes less obvious.
Thats my logic for giving up on alternate picking, doing a single escape just works for me naturally. I believe Troy has mentioned this in the past too. But different stroke different blokes.
I believe that Troy has since said that he was wrong about the rotational element in Steve’s motion and plans to take that video down at some point. I think it’s all wrist, just with a lot of supination 
Bingo. I’d talked with Troy about this in another thread and that’s my understanding too. Troy’s understanding of wrist playing in general has evolved. It’s complicated!!! lol!
Right, and sorry. I do recall you mentioning this many times and it was more in the back of my mind when I cited your experience. I should have referred to it as “The DBX motion Tom used half his lifetime ago” lol!
Good call. I should have specified that since we’re talking about the 2 different forms. “Your old form” being intentionally curved and the wrist based DBX appearing to curve…for free??? Because…
I’m very interested in the extent of this. I know we’ve discussed this before and you mentioned you don’t perceive it as much on electric as the string tension is less. I’d say that’s sort of my experience too. Plus, Troy had a specific video on how apparent this was when Andy Wood plays mandolin, where the string tension is even more.
Do you think a high-ish degree of edge picking, especially with a pointy pick, would make this “ramp” even more pronounced? I need to find specific footage of Troy doing DBX but I feel like I’ve seen some where his edge picking looked near perpendicular (maybe a slight exaggeration on my part).
EDIT: Oh here it is:
Do you have the post on that? Because although ofcourse I could be wrong, in practicing the evh/Steve Morse picking a load, I’m convinced, just as Steve himself said, there is rotation.
I’ve said it a few times but I think it needs highlighting, a pivot point literally transfers a range of motion into a smaller or larger one. It hides the initial action and makes it look like the motion is coming from somewhere else. The rotation seems to disappear visually but it’s still there. It’s just being transferred into a different movement.
Anchoring on the body in anyway will change the initial expression of movement into a new one. Same as how a cars motor spin gets transferred into the wheels, tho that is a little more complicated. Same concept tho, on the outside it looks like the cars power is coming from the wheels rotating in one axis, but it’s acually coming from the engine thats rotating in an axis 90 degrees from the wheels.
I am still convinced from my own experience that the rotation is there, it’s just being transferred. And I did read it. I’m surprised you gave an example so fast lol
One thing to keep in mind, is the example in the air is not anchored/pivoted
But…but…but…you’re doing a completely different mechanic than what I’m talking about lol! I don’t doubt at all that you have a DBX motion that’s rotational. All I’m saying is…there are several ways to do it that require no rotation at all. If there is, it’s invisible and it’s quite different from the deliberate “gypsy” rotation and the thing Tom used to do. Can we agree on that? OR…are you saying it’s physically impossible to do DBX (ANY DBX motion) without the occurrence of rotation? If so…that’s cool. We all view the world a little differently lol!
And of course, this is all in good fun and we’re just throwing ideas around. No ill will or anything 
That’s only because I’d started that thread so I knew how to search for it quickly 
I do think without the forarm rotation it doesn’t work, as you said before without an x-ray or something it’s hard to show. But I wana really hammer away on this idea of a pivot point, it literally transforms motion mechanics. Tho I will ofcourse admit I’m not Troy who is literally doing this stuff professionally.
Tho I honestly believe there is rotation going on, like in a car the engine will say it’s rotating one way, the wheels with say another.
Transformers!! More than meets the eye.
I think this also connects strongly to the recent thread on a triple pick stroke with one wrist motion.
It’s a misunderstanding of how much the forarm rotation essentially gives you an extra true pick stroke. Rather than any wrist or finger motion, the forarm rotation gives two strokes without displacing the pick excessively, anything attached to that is just an extra expression of that, the forarm has two bones in it that float around each other. Twist around each other. There is something to that that I’ve not spent enough time looking into to express in text. Most joints don’t twist like that.
I’d also add I’m flying by the seat of my pants. I do feel it tho…
No problem, I just think context is important. I can’t do this as well as I once could. The core movement is still there, but the pieces learned and the licks I played have decayed.
To do what I did with this movement, I’d have relearn the material and sharpen up the old form. Maybe I could do it, but I doubt I’ll invest the time into it again.
I also can’t do Taekwon-do flying kicks or execute combos in fighting games anymore either.
Yes, the old form was deliberately curved, and was developed specifically to be curved. I worked out all the geometry in a guitar notebook when I was about fourteen or fifteen, I even had the pick depth versus radius calculation in the golf club and flamingos video Troy did on Steve Morse (which has a much simpler solution).
Yeah, I have a very real sensation that the strings do more of the work for me when I play an acoustic guitar. My acoustics are strung with 12s, and most of my electrics are strung with 9s. That’s a very significant difference in string tension.
Bizarrely, I get my best results on wrist forms on acoustic with these picks
I can make the wrist-only movements work on any guitar with pretty much any pick, but the big 346 shape is effortless for me. This really is my Goldilocks pick on acoustic guitars too.
I totally understand.
What is your preferred picking?
For DBX or generally?
Generally, if you had to go on stage and play tomorrow what would your basic technique be
This is the most stupid video I’ve ever made but I think it highlights my point lol
Actually I disagree. I think that’s one of the most amazing videos I’ve ever seen…EVER lol!!! Well done, sir!
