How to start applying DBX outside of rolls?

[WhammyStarScream]

Do you have the post on that? Because although ofcourse I could be wrong, in practicing the evh/Steve Morse picking a load, I’m convinced, just as Steve himself said, there is rotation.

I’ve said it a few times but I think it needs highlighting, a pivot point literally transfers a range of motion into a smaller or larger one. It hides the initial action and makes it look like the motion is coming from somewhere else. The rotation seems to disappear visually but it’s still there. It’s just being transferred into a different movement.

Anchoring on the body in anyway will change the initial expression of movement into a new one. Same as how a cars motor spin gets transferred into the wheels, tho that is a little more complicated. Same concept tho, on the outside it looks like the cars power is coming from the wheels rotating in one axis, but it’s acually coming from the engine thats rotating in an axis 90 degrees from the wheels.

[joebegly]

@WhammyStarScream

Do you have the post on that? Because although ofcourse I could be wrong, in practicing the evh/Steve Morse picking a load, I’m convinced, just as Steve himself said, there is rotation.

How Does Igor Paspalj Do It?

There is no forearm in Steve’s technique. What he demonstrates in the air at that part of the interview, and what he says about it, is not correct, and not what he does when actually playing. However I wouldn’t read too closely into what he’s saying. He knows he has some way of getting out of the strings in two different directions. He’s flubbing the description a little but the intent is basically clear. To his credit, he has always known this, and that’s a lot more than most people know a…

[WhammyStarScream]

I am still convinced from my own experience that the rotation is there, it’s just being transferred. And I did read it. I’m surprised you gave an example so fast lol

One thing to keep in mind, is the example in the air is not anchored/pivoted

[joebegly]

But…but…but…you’re doing a completely different mechanic than what I’m talking about lol! I don’t doubt at all that you have a DBX motion that’s rotational. All I’m saying is…there are several ways to do it that require no rotation at all. If there is, it’s invisible and it’s quite different from the deliberate “gypsy” rotation and the thing Tom used to do. Can we agree on that? OR…are you saying it’s physically impossible to do DBX (ANY DBX motion) without the occurrence of rotation? If so…that’s cool. We all view the world a little differently lol!

And of course, this is all in good fun and we’re just throwing ideas around. No ill will or anything

@WhammyStarScream

I’m surprised you gave an example so fast lol

That’s only because I’d started that thread so I knew how to search for it quickly

[WhammyStarScream]

I do think without the forarm rotation it doesn’t work, as you said before without an x-ray or something it’s hard to show. But I wana really hammer away on this idea of a pivot point, it literally transforms motion mechanics. Tho I will ofcourse admit I’m not Troy who is literally doing this stuff professionally.

Tho I honestly believe there is rotation going on, like in a car the engine will say it’s rotating one way, the wheels with say another.

Transformers!! More than meets the eye.

[WhammyStarScream]

I think this also connects strongly to the recent thread on a triple pick stroke with one wrist motion.

It’s a misunderstanding of how much the forarm rotation essentially gives you an extra true pick stroke. Rather than any wrist or finger motion, the forarm rotation gives two strokes without displacing the pick excessively, anything attached to that is just an extra expression of that, the forarm has two bones in it that float around each other. Twist around each other. There is something to that that I’ve not spent enough time looking into to express in text. Most joints don’t twist like that.

I’d also add I’m flying by the seat of my pants. I do feel it tho…

[Tom_Gilroy]

@joebegly

Right, and sorry. I do recall you mentioning this many times and it was more in the back of my mind when I cited your experience. I should have referred to it as “The DBX motion Tom used half his lifetime ago” lol!

No problem, I just think context is important. I can’t do this as well as I once could. The core movement is still there, but the pieces learned and the licks I played have decayed.

To do what I did with this movement, I’d have relearn the material and sharpen up the old form. Maybe I could do it, but I doubt I’ll invest the time into it again.

I also can’t do Taekwon-do flying kicks or execute combos in fighting games anymore either.

@joebegly

Good call. I should have specified that since we’re talking about the 2 different forms. “Your old form” being intentionally curved and the wrist based DBX appearing to curve…for free??? Because…

Yes, the old form was deliberately curved, and was developed specifically to be curved. I worked out all the geometry in a guitar notebook when I was about fourteen or fifteen, I even had the pick depth versus radius calculation in the golf club and flamingos video Troy did on Steve Morse (which has a much simpler solution).

@joebegly

I’m very interested in the extent of this. I know we’ve discussed this before and you mentioned you don’t perceive it as much on electric as the string tension is less. I’d say that’s sort of my experience too.

Yeah, I have a very real sensation that the strings do more of the work for me when I play an acoustic guitar. My acoustics are strung with 12s, and most of my electrics are strung with 9s. That’s a very significant difference in string tension.

@joebegly

Do you think a high-ish degree of edge picking, especially with a pointy pick, would make this “ramp” even more pronounced?

Bizarrely, I get my best results on wrist forms on acoustic with these picks

https://www.daddario.com/products/accessories/picks-and-pick-holders/duralin/duralin-wide/item/daddario-duralin-guitar-picks-medium-10-pack-wide-shape-2027/

I can make the wrist-only movements work on any guitar with pretty much any pick, but the big 346 shape is effortless for me. This really is my Goldilocks pick on acoustic guitars too.

@WhammyStarScream

Thats my logic for giving up on alternate picking, doing a single escape just works for me naturally.

I totally understand.

[WhammyStarScream]

What is your preferred picking?

[Tom_Gilroy]

For DBX or generally?

[WhammyStarScream]

Generally, if you had to go on stage and play tomorrow what would your basic technique be

[WhammyStarScream]

This is the most stupid video I’ve ever made but I think it highlights my point lol

2023 06 24 02 31 19

[joebegly]

@WhammyStarScream

This is the most stupid video I’ve ever made

Actually I disagree. I think that’s one of the most amazing videos I’ve ever seen…EVER lol!!! Well done, sir!

[Riffdiculous]

I lol’ed, and I think you certainly have a point.

nominates video for Academy Award

[ShadowoftheSun]

I’m not seeing forearm rotation in that video. I’m seeing the forearm moving, but I think that’s solely due to referred movement from the wrist.

[WhammyStarScream]

I think this is the issue tho, I say my forarm is rotating, Steve says his forarm is rotating, but from an outside observer, it looks all from the wrist.

[jptk]

This may well be the most incredible picking motion video I have ever seen!

[Tom_Gilroy]

@WhammyStarScream

Generally, if you had to go on stage and play tomorrow what would your basic technique be

I doubt I would actually have enough prepared repertoire that’s performance ready to go and play on a stage tomorrow.

As for what I would use, I have several different movements that I use situationally.

My “default” mode is reverse dart-thrower movement from a loose leading edge grip, which I can use for mixed escape alternate picking, two-way economy or hybrid/swybrid picking. If I need continuous DBX, I can tuck my fingers slightly, supinate just a little bit more a Andy Wood style 9-0-2 DBX movement (this is my primary technique on acoustic guitar). The basic form is capable of continuous DSX, but I don’t have much DSX vocabulary that doesn’t incorporate hybrid picking.

This is the mode of picking I use when learning most things. It’s highly versatile, plenty fast for most applications and works well with my legato technique. It’s mostly independently developed, but I’ve definitely incorporated some some things from watching and listening to Marshall Harrison, Anton Oparin and Andy Wood.

For my own personal vocabularly, I mostly use USX. From the same grip as my default, I can switch into a continuous USX form. I developed this from studying Eric Johnson’s form. This form is super reliable for me and it’s my favourite picking movement in terms of tone and articulation.

Alternatively, I can switch to a Shawn Lane style trailing edge grip and use a dart-thrower USX mechanic. I trained this movement during the pandemic, and it’s already the fastest movement I can do. It has some cool advantages beyond just speed. Unlike a more supinated USX form which requires that the fingers be tucked on the pickguard, the more neutral position means that the middle finger is always available for hybrid picking (even at silly speeds). This facilitates more ways to create repeating coordinations with odd numbers of notes, and it allows for some vocaularly with string skips that would just be infeasible any other way. Instead of hybrid picking, I can also hold a vibrato bar and pick fast without obstruction, which I can’t do comfortably with my other forms.

I can do other movements too. I can do the Molly Tuttle style 10-0-3 movement decently well and I can do a fast thumb/finger USX motion, but I don’t really use either except when demonstrating in lessons. I can’t do DSX elbow well or elbow hyperpicking (can only trigger the movement occasionally), and I can’t do the Gypsy form.

I’m finally satisfied with what I have, I don’t plan on learning any other movements, and if the movements I don’t use decay in time I won’t be upset about it. I may eventually need a shoulder surgery (I had a dislocation in 2020), so hopefully at least one of the movements I use remains mostly functional for the rest of my life.

[Riffdiculous]

@WhammyStarScream

I think this is the issue tho, I say my forarm is rotating, Steve says his forarm is rotating, but from an outside observer, it looks all from the wrist.

This is actually something I’ve been pondering a lot since Anton Oparin brought Paul Gilbert’s whole “wrist dance” thing to light. That movement doesn’t appear to be there when either of them speed up, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t, to some small degree at least, or that it doesn’t have a positive effect (either physically or even psychologically).

[Tom_Gilroy]

@Riffdiculous

That movement doesn’t appear to be there when either of them speed up, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t, to some small degree at least, or that it doesn’t have a positive effect (either physically or even psychologically).

I think the “wrist dance” has to persist to some degree, even if it’s not apparent visually.

The muscles which drive the RDT wrist movement (flexor carpi radialis and extensor carpi ulnaris) have secondary function in rotation. To prevent that rotation would require activation of the primary rotators, which would increase background tension.

I think the “wrist dance” is the incidental rotation caused by the action of the RDT muscles against low background tension.

My mixed escape form isn’t totally dissimilar to Anton’s, and I perceive the “wrist dance” sensation clearly.

[joebegly]

@Tom_Gilroy

My mixed escape form isn’t totally dissimilar to Anton’s, and I perceive the “wrist dance” sensation clearly.

I know mixed escape and DBX aren’t the same thing. What about when you do any of the wrist-based (i.e. not your ‘old’ DBX motion) DBX motions? The Andy Wood or even the Molly Tuttle forms. Do you perceive constant rotation when you do them? That’s my only gripe with the whole alleged rotational aspect to wrist based DBX. I’m not telling my muscles to rotate when I do Andy Wood/Steve Morse/Molly Tuttle DBX. If there’s an inherent rotation at the biological level, that’s fine. I can accept that, and I’m sure you’re correct since you’ve researched this so thoroughly. This would be more of a side effect of playing relaxed though, correct?

At the end of the day, to do any motion successfully we have to be able to tell our muscles/joints to do a particular thing. I’ve got a decent gypsy rotational mechanic. When I do that I tell my forearm “rotate”. Usually it obeys me lol! And that rotation drives the motion. When I do wrist DBX I just tell my wrist to move back and forth. It feels nothing at all like gypsy rotation. My wrist drives the motion. If my forearm is invisibly rotating ever so slightly, that’s just because it’s coming along for the ride. In other words I shouldn’t even think about it.

I guess I’m just trying to say, we all are trying to play by the rules of the game that Troy’s established through his accepted terminology. “Rotation” means a very specific thing in CtC nomenclature as it’s one of the core motion mechanics. I’m just worried some people will bark up the wrong tree if they are trying to shoehorn that type of motion into a wrist based DBX.