I lol’ed, and I think you certainly have a point.
nominates video for Academy Award
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I’m not seeing forearm rotation in that video. I’m seeing the forearm moving, but I think that’s solely due to referred movement from the wrist.
I think this is the issue tho, I say my forarm is rotating, Steve says his forarm is rotating, but from an outside observer, it looks all from the wrist.
This may well be the most incredible picking motion video I have ever seen! 
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I doubt I would actually have enough prepared repertoire that’s performance ready to go and play on a stage tomorrow.
As for what I would use, I have several different movements that I use situationally.
My “default” mode is reverse dart-thrower movement from a loose leading edge grip, which I can use for mixed escape alternate picking, two-way economy or hybrid/swybrid picking. If I need continuous DBX, I can tuck my fingers slightly, supinate just a little bit more a Andy Wood style 9-0-2 DBX movement (this is my primary technique on acoustic guitar). The basic form is capable of continuous DSX, but I don’t have much DSX vocabulary that doesn’t incorporate hybrid picking.
This is the mode of picking I use when learning most things. It’s highly versatile, plenty fast for most applications and works well with my legato technique. It’s mostly independently developed, but I’ve definitely incorporated some some things from watching and listening to Marshall Harrison, Anton Oparin and Andy Wood.
For my own personal vocabularly, I mostly use USX. From the same grip as my default, I can switch into a continuous USX form. I developed this from studying Eric Johnson’s form. This form is super reliable for me and it’s my favourite picking movement in terms of tone and articulation.
Alternatively, I can switch to a Shawn Lane style trailing edge grip and use a dart-thrower USX mechanic. I trained this movement during the pandemic, and it’s already the fastest movement I can do. It has some cool advantages beyond just speed. Unlike a more supinated USX form which requires that the fingers be tucked on the pickguard, the more neutral position means that the middle finger is always available for hybrid picking (even at silly speeds). This facilitates more ways to create repeating coordinations with odd numbers of notes, and it allows for some vocaularly with string skips that would just be infeasible any other way. Instead of hybrid picking, I can also hold a vibrato bar and pick fast without obstruction, which I can’t do comfortably with my other forms.
I can do other movements too. I can do the Molly Tuttle style 10-0-3 movement decently well and I can do a fast thumb/finger USX motion, but I don’t really use either except when demonstrating in lessons. I can’t do DSX elbow well or elbow hyperpicking (can only trigger the movement occasionally), and I can’t do the Gypsy form.
I’m finally satisfied with what I have, I don’t plan on learning any other movements, and if the movements I don’t use decay in time I won’t be upset about it. I may eventually need a shoulder surgery (I had a dislocation in 2020), so hopefully at least one of the movements I use remains mostly functional for the rest of my life.
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This is actually something I’ve been pondering a lot since Anton Oparin brought Paul Gilbert’s whole “wrist dance” thing to light. That movement doesn’t appear to be there when either of them speed up, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t, to some small degree at least, or that it doesn’t have a positive effect (either physically or even psychologically).
I think the “wrist dance” has to persist to some degree, even if it’s not apparent visually.
The muscles which drive the RDT wrist movement (flexor carpi radialis and extensor carpi ulnaris) have secondary function in rotation. To prevent that rotation would require activation of the primary rotators, which would increase background tension.
I think the “wrist dance” is the incidental rotation caused by the action of the RDT muscles against low background tension.
My mixed escape form isn’t totally dissimilar to Anton’s, and I perceive the “wrist dance” sensation clearly.
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I know mixed escape and DBX aren’t the same thing. What about when you do any of the wrist-based (i.e. not your ‘old’ DBX motion) DBX motions? The Andy Wood or even the Molly Tuttle forms. Do you perceive constant rotation when you do them? That’s my only gripe with the whole alleged rotational aspect to wrist based DBX. I’m not telling my muscles to rotate when I do Andy Wood/Steve Morse/Molly Tuttle DBX. If there’s an inherent rotation at the biological level, that’s fine. I can accept that, and I’m sure you’re correct since you’ve researched this so thoroughly. This would be more of a side effect of playing relaxed though, correct?
At the end of the day, to do any motion successfully we have to be able to tell our muscles/joints to do a particular thing. I’ve got a decent gypsy rotational mechanic. When I do that I tell my forearm “rotate”. Usually it obeys me lol! And that rotation drives the motion. When I do wrist DBX I just tell my wrist to move back and forth. It feels nothing at all like gypsy rotation. My wrist drives the motion. If my forearm is invisibly rotating ever so slightly, that’s just because it’s coming along for the ride. In other words I shouldn’t even think about it.
I guess I’m just trying to say, we all are trying to play by the rules of the game that Troy’s established through his accepted terminology. “Rotation” means a very specific thing in CtC nomenclature as it’s one of the core motion mechanics. I’m just worried some people will bark up the wrong tree if they are trying to shoehorn that type of motion into a wrist based DBX.
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You know, I’ve never actually thought about that!
Here’s what happened with 9-0-2. On my first attempt, trying to be conscious of forearm rotation resulted in form breakdown immediately. On second attempt, deliberate rotation occurred and the movement became RDT+rotation based USX. On my third attempt I absently watched the hairs on my right forearm, it appears some rotation of the forearm is occurring, but I can’t focus my kinaesthetic awareness on it.
Here’s what happened with 10-0-3. On my first attempt, trying to be conscious of forearm rotation resulted in form breakdown. On second attempt I perceived some rotation. On third attempt, the rotation felt like it was associated with tracking rather than the picking movement. No visually apparent continuous rotation gat I can tell, and nothing in my kinaesthetic awareness.
Yes, I think so. Activating any muscle which crosses two joints results in motion at both joints, unless there’s something preventing one of the movements (external obstruction or internal tension).
I’d agree. Don’t think, feel.
I can definitely say that the incidental “wrist dance” rotation feels completely different to deliberate rotation for me.
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As always, I’ve not put enough effort or done enough research into this to say for fact, but I think what appears to be coming along for the ride, is acually driving a lot of the motion. It’s the same concept of a ship even slightly drifting off course will over time create a massive change in course. A pivot does that, it transfers minimal motions into larger ones, or visa versa.
I think the forarm rotation is inseparable in terms of tracking the strings, and as guitarists multiple strings are our advantage, and bane right lol, you can do pure wrist on a single string, but to use more than one you have to incorporate the forarm to some extent. And I feel you have to use it even on a single string. Our body acts holistically, as one, one move supporting the other. This reminds me of bodybuilding, bodybuilding exercises aim to isolate a single muscle, but thats not how our body works, and why if you do too much isolated training you’re bound to get an injury.
I strongly believe dbx needs rotation. But I’m not an expert to say the least lol
It’s one of the main reasons I personally think a single escape is superior, as it bypasses all this nonsense, as troy said in his early video, it literally solves 50% of the problem.
That’s fine. We may just need to have a virtual beer together on the matter and just agree to disagree. I’ve put a decent chunk of time into wrist DBX. It’s been my main “technique project”, guitar-wise, since about March 2022. I don’t feel forearm rotation driving it. Maybe you do, and that’s cool, but for me I just don’t feel it. I absolutely feel it in gypsy single escape style playing, so I think I have a decent baseline for what that muscle combo actually feels like. It’s also possible we’re just talking apples and oranges and what you’re doing in DBX is that ‘other’ motion that Tom used to do which is very much rotation dependent. It’s also possible I’m entirely wrong about everything too lol!
Troy’s an expert if there is one and based on the things he’s written about it, I don’t understand that to be his position. Especially since he publicly walked back previous statements he’s made about it being part of Steve Morse’s mechanic.
That doesn’t help us out if we’re dead set on playing things that require DBX. I guess those of us who have gone down the path of pursuing it, for whatever the reason, we could always just not want to DBX and want to do something else instead.
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I think this should be reiterated on the forum more. If I ever concentrate on “just picking from the wrist”, it’s pretty horrible. Recent exercises I’ve done have led me to believe that everything is involved in my picking, from the fingers up to the shoulder, and in some cases, pec and lat.
This is particularly cringe inducing for me when I see top level athletes try to isolate their rotator cuff (really specific example).
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Troy should to come out with a hand held MRI.
Magnets how do they work?
One thing that I think highlights the forarm rotation is sweeping.
Because the forarm has two bones in it, it essentially twists within itself. And you can’t see that action from an outside perspective.
Sound is really low, Bad video
Absolutely. I’m terrified that I’m about to open a can of worms…
The idea that multiple joint motion is inherently bad in instrument technique doesn’t really make sense to me from a anatomical, physiological or motor learning perspective. Muscles cross multiple joints and have secondary functions when activated. Muscles are adapted to act synergistically with each other during movement as a kinetic chain. My recent reading on motor learning suggests these natural muscle synergies are also important in creating “movement synonyms” which are importart in creating stable, transferrable motor programs.
This of course doesn’t mean that all multiple joint motion is synergistic, and it would not imply that trying to move multiple joints is a good idea.
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This is why we disagreed with the definition of independence before, The movement is most definitely a result of prior movements down the chain. But whats the ultimate result?
can you educate me on this? I know there was a topic that got blocked awhile ago that I didn’t get involved in
This is the main point, if someone who is doing the movement and has the internal personal feel of what they are doing, how can we disagree from the outside?
I experience my forarm is dictating the majority of my picking even if it blends away into a different axis and feel. You can’t say thats not true, because unless you can, or troy can, or anyone can, show it’s not happening… Then thats acually whats happening. This video The Mechanical Marvel of Double Escape Wrist Motion - YouTube is ignoring the forarm rotation thats allowing the various extended pick strokes.
If you look at the clock examples, every single one reaches a dead end, because theres is not forarm rotation to reset/double the strokes.
The forarm rotation allows everything troy has explained. But without it you literally get stuck, you reach a dead end.
In that video troy says The Mechanical Marvel of Double Escape Wrist Motion - YouTube
“the wrist has 360 rotation”, it doesn’t, it has up down left n right, the 360 is achieved with forarm rotation.
And also I have to say, I’m team Troy. So I hope this isn’t taken as an attack or anything like that, the amount of effort Troy has put into this is beyond me. Though I’m still an individual.
We’ve seen countless examples of amateurs and pros who aren’t really doing what they think they are doing. To me it’s not a stretch to say that he has a wrist mechanic that is the driver of the motion and no visible rotation.
Well look at the lame video I made. Do you think i’m wrong?
I’m really bad at math, but a 2d movement can not jump over a 3d form. The strings are 3d, you need to make at least three moves to get over it and be in a position to pick again. The pick acually gives that 3rd dimension by being somewhat curved and guiding the 2d force over the string, it allows a 3d move with a 2d feel…