Hyperspeed—what's going on?

Playing Technique
#1

I would like to understand exactly what’s going on in hyperpicking.

I’ve found that for many people hyperpicking seems to produce a relatively consistent 20ish notes per second tempo, ie 10 downstrokes per second. Similarly, in competitive gaming, roughly 10 clicks per second is about what can be expected when hyperclicking. In practical pistol, which is basically gun racing, the fastest anyone can repeatedly get splits (repeated trigger presses) tends to with remarkable regularity be 0.10. Those are also my fastest consistently repeatable tempos for each of those activities. 10/second = 10 Hz.

Here are some interesting excerpts from “Physiological and pathological tremors and rhythmic central motor control” https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/123.8.1545

“The first electrophysiological investigation of tremor seems to have been conducted by Horsley and Schafer, who found that ongoing muscle activity, whether induced voluntarily or by electrical motor tract stimulation in animal preparations, was universally characterized by superimposed 10-Hz tremulous twitches (Horsley and Schafer, 1886).”

“Finally, Vallbo and Wessberg have found that apparently smooth, slow, controlled finger movements are modulated by a motion tremor consisting of regular pulses fixed at the physiological tremor frequency of 8–10 Hz (Fig. 5) (Vallbo and Wessberg, 1993).”

“From the point of view of tremor generation, an important property of individual motor units is that they do not fire over a continuous frequency range but start firing at a minimum frequency of around 8–10 Hz (Henneman, 1979), possibly partly through the influence of spinal mechanisms such as Renshaw inhibition.”

So anyway, there’s some physiological process that dictates this frequency. It could be something neurochemical; pacemaker cells in the heart dictate frequency by leaking positively charged molecules until the difference in charge between them and their surroundings activates a switch which opens a gate and resets the balance, over and over. It could also just have to do with transmission times. The time it takes for your quadricep to contract after the doctor hits your patellar tendon with a reflex hammer, around 50ms, is dictated by conduction speed. Incidentally, it could be that hyperpicking requires two such voluntary movements per cycle, hence 1 movement per 100ms = 10Hz.

Whatever the case may about the process or architecture behind this particular speed, I think it would be interesting to take a look at what exactly the muscles of the arm are doing in hyperpicking. I hope to do an electromyographic study for this purpose and would like to do a write-up, hypothesizing that hyper movements are essentially a voluntary and controlled form of what’s called an isometric tremor, ie the kind of shakes you get when straining against an immovable object. Does it feel like that to you? If not, what does it feel like?

Do any of you have any thoughts on this or on hyperpicking in general? What’s your best recorded speed? What’s your comfortable tempo when hyperpicking for more than 5s or so? Can you hyperclick? Spacebar Test - Check out how fast can you press the spacebar
Is there anything else you want to know?

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this! More to follow.

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#2

This is fascinating, if true: 10Hz is the fastest movement for everything? Also I took the spacebar test and could barely break 6Hz. :crying_cat_face:

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#3

Very interesting - did the 10-second one twice, got CPS of 9.5 both times; I don’t think I used a locked-wrist elbow-type movement like you see in typical hyperpicking.

Definitely felt more like a combination of elbow and regular dart-thrower tapping (11:00 - 17:00 clockface with the hand tilted ~45 degrees to the pinky side)

Really wish I could find a way to use DT for guitar :cry:

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#4

haha this is very addictive! My best so far:

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#5

Amazing, 9.0 and 9.5!

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#6

Very important to note - I’m pretty sure I could go a bit higher if I clean up the motion (I can feel randomness), and it’s absolutely irrelevant to anything useful lmao

I am not able to use anything even remotely as fast or smooth for guitar, and I mostly play either turn-based indie games, or slower-paced multiplayer stuff like League and World of Tanks, so it’s not even gameplay-enabling :smiley:

edit: have a horrible video lol - this ended up at 9.2 CPS because I had to awkwardly try to hold the phone stable with one hand, and mash with the other.

You can see how I start with a stable forearm and at times it starts jerking around. I can also feel my triceps and rear delt activating at points when I try the motion.

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#7

@Gravenous Out of curiosity, what do you score on the three second test?

#8

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Did it 4 times, first was 9.7, the following two were both 10.3, and the final was 10.7

I lean a bit forward, and tense up the triceps and … brachioradialis, I think? There’s still the DT tapping motion, but I feel I’m also using the muscles responsible for actual elbow hyper-picking.

At this speed I’m pretty sure the keyboard ergonomics kick into play, and I’m starting to fear for my poor spacebar :smiley:

EDIT:

So I asked two friends, who do not play musical instruments, but both play video games, to try it out as well. After gently correcting a few things (one started with the thumb at 7.2, the other with his middle finger at 7.4), they managed 8.7 and 9.0 on the 3-second test, but were both worried about tension.

Very curious if there’s a teachable, standardised way to use this motion pattern on an instrument, though. I believe drummers sometimes use something similar?

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#9

My first few tries I got this:

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But then I two hand tapped it and I got this:

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#10

I would probably agree with that. It likely will also require arm movements and muscles that you normally wouldn’t use when playing.

Keep in mind this just averages out the perceived taps, so if you at all have an inconsistent tap, it will hit that against you.

#11

I’ve used spacebar tests like these in lessons before. It helps students to realise that they don’t have any shortcoming with their nervous speed.

This is the site I use:

Most students who have never taken a spacebar test before have scored in the range of 6.5-8.5 clicks per second averaged over 10 seconds (averaged over 5 tests). Some on the lower end have told me that they were able to increase their speed with some practice.

My first attempt was about 8.5 clicks per second, which very quickly became 9.5 cps with a small amount of practice. I now regularly score higher than 10 CPS with a dart-thrower and elbow movement (likely what @Gravenous has been using). I can actually pick with this movement too, but I haven’t measured how fast it is on a guitar; it’s far more than fast enough for my purposes.

The highest I’ve ever gotten has been about 11 CPS, but it’s hard to sustain that speed for 10 full seconds. On mouse click speed tests which test highest instantaneous speed, I can get to 11.5 - 12 CPS, but the movement is too small to be a functional picking movement, it loses any sense of connection to my sense of time, and it burns out my arm after a few attempts.

10 Hz seems a little low to me, based on my own experience and from what I’ve seen with students. Then of course, we’ve all seen @milehighshred pick in the range of 13-14 Hz. I think with deliberate training, most people could get into the 10-11 Hz range.

#12

Tom, please don’t think I’m using this as an attack of any sorts, certainly not at all my intention, but I saw this and wanted to air some inconsequential grievances.

Honestly I don’t think conflating hz with nps in general is very useful - they have different implications in regards to use case, general application/diciplines. If you are using cps as a term it is also misleading for the exact same reason and you have to elaborate on context - cycles per second (which equals hertz) or clicks per second which is measuring predominantly speed (potentially velocity) and what is contextually most likely here. In any case these all require conversions that may just obfuscate the point.

For example if you are using hz as a measure of speed as it applies to how many notes you are playing a second (which I don’t think many would do for various reasons and considering it implies an actual audible frequency component is involved) you have to use multiple conversions for it to paint a picture. 60hz = 1nps, 10hz = ~ .17nps (1 note per every 6 seconds) so yeah most people could probably muster that even with heavy alcohol and benzo use.

10nps on the other hand is completely different than 10hz. 10nps = 600hz if you were trying to equate it to the frequency of which successive clicks/taps/hits/plucks are captured, (would never use hz for this purpose) and equals roughly 16th notes at 150bpm with f you were using it in that context, which might mean more to the run of the mill guitar player. Using various units of measurements found in different disciplines interchangeably - related or unrelated - kind of obscures things a bit. I see it a lot though.

#13

Sorry @Fossegrim, but I’m assuming a reader can understand that we’re talking about the mechanical frequency of the antagonist muscle groups which drive a cyclical human movement. This has nothing at all to do with audible frequency.

10 clicks per second (cps) is ten cycles of a clicking movement per second. It corresponds to exactly 10 Hz. So, the fact that I (and others in this thread) can reach over 10 clicks per second is evidence that cyclical movement patterns are not limited to 10 Hz in humans.

I also don’t agree that clicks per second is a measure of speed, it is absolutely a measure of frequency.

Because a picking movement is cyclical and we achieve 2 pick strokes per cycle, a picking movement with a frequency of 10 Hz would correspond to 20 notes picked in one second.

I don’t know where you got that 1 nps would be 60 Hz, but it’s incorrect. You’ve done that conversion incorrectly.

#14

To slightly derail the thread:

Tom, would you be willing to post a brief video going over your setup for this, and a demonstration of the motion on an actual guitar?

Despite having no evidence, I feel most people use this same motion pattern for fast button-mashing type movement, and would be interested to see if it is in any practical way applicable to guitar.

#15

I wouldn’t assume anything. Quite clearly I didn’t because I do not encounter hz used in this context. I encounter it in another. So a brief mention would be nice. I don’t typically follow this hand motion stuff to closely.

Sure once the context is understood

Now I see exactly what you are getting at here! As an aside I’m not sure button mashing tests are really the best for illustrating this though, as it pertains to guitar playing

I got it from being sleep deprived at 4am. in my assumption of how you were using the term it would obviously be 60 not 1, which is clearly indicated in name. I feel silly for that one. In how you are using the term… Well good luck picking that!

#16

Fair criticism. My apologies for the confusion.

It’s not so much about guitar playing. It’s about removing a mental block.

Many students come to me and tell me that they think they’re slow on a nervous level or that they’re incapable of any type of fast movement for vague reasons. They believe they are naturally disadvantaged in speed in some way.

The spacebar test is an excellent demonstration that most people are plenty fast enough to be a “fast” guitarist.

Also, while I like the metronome tapping tests that CTC teaches, I’ve had some students come to me who can’t reach a “good” score on those tests because the challenge of synchronising their movement to the click is too difficult for them.

It’s not so much that they can’t “move fast,” it’s that their movements lose connection to their internal clock when they attempt to move fast. People in this situation can not use a metronome to test their potential speed.

The spacebar tests help them to realise that it’s an issue with the movement not connecting to their sense of pulse rather than some vague inability to move fast.

Understandable, we’ve all been there.

I might be able to make a video sometime this week. I’m certainly willing, it’s just more an issue of finding the time to sit down and do it.

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#17

I do see the value in it from that perspective so long as the purpose is well understood and expectations are kept in check. I worry that some might look too far into the purpose and implications of these types of tests (tap or pencil) and come away with something that was never intended. I guess you can say that about anything though.

#18

I try to be very clear on the purpose of the test and not create unhelpful expectations.

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