I have been trying so hard and have made no progress!

Technique Critique
#61

Thanks @Troy I appreciate your input. I have a terrible time keeping my thumb straight and I always felt like if It curls, it’s wrong. Did anything stand out in the videos I shared? I am absolutely fine with not playing for a few days, but I really just want to figure out why I can’t seem to get my hands relaxed when I play. What is the best angle to film to pin point my wrist problem? Above like in my boop doop video? Or would another angle be better?

I know asking and asking and asking will only go so far… and experimenting and trying things out is the best way. I’ve just been at it for so long with no luck. I appreciate everyones help from this community. It’s truly so rewarding to know people here are so willing and happy to help.

#62

Again, the straightness of the wrist is what matters for wrist pain. When you say you “felt” like something was wrong, do you mean you felt pain? Any thumb position that allows the wrist to be straight, and doesn’t cause pain anywhere else, is a “correct” thumb position. There are multiple hand positions that satisfy these requirements, including what Drew describes as the blues position (thumb over the neck) and several others. Have you ever noticed that when EVH plays wide-stretch licks, he points the guitar straight up in the air and puts the thumb near the high E string? It’s to keep the wrist straight:

These positions are all “correct” in the sense that they cause no or less pain. You may not be able to reach all strings/frets from all of these hand positions, but that’s much less of a concern. Personally, I just play what’s comfortable. I stay away from anything where I need to bend the wrist too far, or for very long, because it’s just not worth it to me. Call me lazy — injury-free and lazy.

Checklist:

  1. Is wrist straight?
  2. Can I reach the phrase?
  3. If no, can I find another arm / wrist / guitar position that’s straight?
  4. If no, play phrase only briefly.
  5. If no, ignore phrase.

That’s it!

Tom Gilroy here on the forum has written up some more detailed stuff on one particular method he likes for getting the wrist to be straight. You can do a search for his posts and see if any of that works for you.

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#63

On another note, you indicated that you’ve watched the whole Primer but it looks like you may have missed thed table top tests and tremolo test for ironing out picking motions. Is that just because those updates are new, and you hadn’t seen then yet? Or were we not clear enough in those sections that they’re mandatory and not skippable? Any feedback appreciated.

In the mean time, I recommend giving those lessons a shot and recording your test values, just to get a diagnostic on where you are at. Your motions look good, but knowing your potential is always useful to make sure you’re on track, and don’t waste time on slow / inefficient things that are obviously way below what you can really do.

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#64

@Troy You’ve created a revolutionary platform for guitar players and everything you put out is crystal clear. It’s just some people (like myself) have a hard time staying focused and retaining information. Also sometimes videos just don’t quite do the same thing as a hands on real life teacher helping you. You know? I really do try very hard. I’ve gone through the table top tests and tremolo tests. I know it sounds silly, but I just can’t seem to apply anything to my playing. :woozy_face:

I am going to go back to tests now though and do some deep work. Also, thanks for the suggestion on tom gilroys posts. I will check those out as well.

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#65

You started this thread using a motion that was not your fastest and not optimal. This is where maybe we fell down in not making it clear that the results of the tests are how you know which motions to use.

However thanks to the other fine folks on the thread, they reminded you to do the tremolo test, which you did, and filmed it, resulting in a much faster motion. That’s the motion you should use from now on. That is progress. Very loud and clear progress.

I understand that a new picking motion may feel unfamiliar and you may not know how to combine it with fretting at first. That’s how you know you’re actually learning. If everything feels familiar, you probably didn’t make any substantive change.

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#66

Damn truth right there… woof. :exploding_head: :dizzy_face:

Can I just pay you tons of money to be my teacher? :rofl:

You didn’t fall down in your clarity, it’s just hard to apply it to my playing and not just tremolo picking a single note.

But yeah in all seriousness. I know I have a lot of work to do and I know where my problems are. Learning something new and re training my technique after years of uncomfortable playing seems impossible. But I appreciate your kind words and positivity. I love to learn.

There’s a lot of gold in this thread.

#67

Here is another tremolo attempt

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#68

So that’s WAAAAY faster than your original video.

The thing that I’m ‘seeing’ and I put that in quotes because I’m still very new to this too, is that in your original clip, your hand and picking appears to be primarily an USX movement, where you’re flying off the strings on upstrokes and buried on down.

This new clip with the tremolo, that seems to be in a ‘state of flux’ or leaning maybe more towards DSX although it really does seem to shift around (because it’s new and in a learning phase so no worries, just observations) where you’re escaping on downstrokes. I recognize the ‘indecision’ of the movement because I’m in a similar place. You can see in my clips in this Miserlou thread of mine.

Anyway, just some food for thought, you might find it WAY easier to blitz through some picking licks if you take and apply this tremolo motion you’ve got with some simple DSX style licks to see if you can link up and bash a few quick wins out.

That’s what I’m going to do :smiley:

1 Like
#69

Yeah! My picking hand is like “this way no this way no this way no this way AHHHH” and my brain is like " wat? " Applying that tremolo motion to licks for me is like asking a 4 year old to do a back flip. The poor kid is probably gonna break their neck.

Appreciate the food for thought. I’ll take a look at your videos too!

#70

LOL

Well I don’t suggest jumping right into flight of the bumblebee or anything

But if it were ME I would break it down so you can absolutely demolish it on 1 or 2 strings without fretting notes. Just move between two strings making sure your changes happen after downstrokes only.

Make a game of it!

At least this way, you’ll ‘know’ what you’re looking for. If you’re not able to get near the tremolo speed, somethings cocked up with the motion, film it a bit and diagnose it either yourself or here, rinse repeat!

Anyway, I think you’ve got much more in the tank than you think. The fretting will become far easier if you know what you’re looking for.

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#71

I put together this practice sheet to work on. I hope.

practice sheet
practice sheet2550×3300 1.04 MB

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#72

In the last clip I checked, your motion seemed DSX. So, you are better off getting started with licks that only change strings after a downstroke. So it looks to me like you need a different practice sheet :slight_smile:

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#73

Wait… don’t all of these licks change strings after downstrokes? Or am I slightly stoopids?

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#74

I look at a sheet like that and go crosseyed… so like I feel you… HOWEVER

If you count just the first bar … measure? The one with 4 groups of 16th notes and count down > up > down > up that pattern doesn’t change when you’re alternate picking and the string change happens after an even number, which means you’ll end on an upstroke at the string switch so…

Like @tommo said, looks like you’ll need a different practice sheet :smiley:

In fact, I’ll go one step further and ‘notate’ what I just did to get a feel for how it should … feel

Tremolo 5x on your low E string starting on a down stroke then switch to your A and tremolo 6x but continuing the pattern you started on low E.

Do it properly and you’ll end on a downstroke from Low E and start on the upstroke on A for 6 notes.

Just go back and forth between the two strings being militant about the pattern. Don’t touch your frets (except to mute them maybe so you can really hear the ‘click’ of the string and picking.

I would be willing to bet you’ve never felt ‘fluid’ changing strings like that ever before. I know I sure as hell haven’t. Or at least, I did occasionally but probably never intuited WHY it felt good sometimes and other times not.

2 Likes
#75

Not really. This is not what inconsistent motion looks like. Your motion is not stopping and starting or making random circles and missing the string. It’s making nice smooth contact, with an essentially back and forth motion all the time. Any variation here is very small.

The concept of escape motion is that some pickstrokes go up in the air. These are the escape strokes. You can only move to a new string during the escape stroke. Elbow motion creates a downstroke escape, i.e. DSX, which means the the final note on every string must be a downstroke, so you can switch strings when the pick is in the air.

#76

@Johannes It’s definitely been waiting to happen, over 20 years now! Lol that being said, my intent wasn’t to make him flex his wrist more, just put the thumb behind the fingers as this allows your thumb to press against the back of the neck, reducing the pressure needed from the finger flexors, which could be a contributing factor in wrist pain.

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#77

Sorry, let me clarify. When I said “this way no this way” I meant, re grip/ pick angle. Maybe not so obvious in the videos, but it happens often.

Right. My pick escapes when I make a downstroke so I can make an Upstroke on the next string. So 4 notes per string licks like U-D-U-D string change U-D-U-D string change etc…?

#78

For the sake of simplicity and removing as many barriers to entry as possible, I’d suggest starting on a downstroke to really hammer home the feel of the beat. But to asnwer your question, technically yes starting on an upstroke would allow you to play any even number of notes using DSX and switching after a downstroke.

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#79

That’s not happening in this clip either. This motion and grip are very consistent. Maybe you were doing that before, but you’re not doing that any more. Take the win.

Correct, final note on every string is a downstroke. First note doesn’t matter. If it’s the first string in a line, that can go DUD if you want, but yes, every string after that will have to start on an upstroke.

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#80

Win taken. Thank you @Troy :upside_down_face:

Does anybody have cool sounding DSX licks I could practice then? I need to make a new practice sheet.