If C major is the scale for a C chord (the I chord in the key of C), then why does F sound terrible over a CMaj7 chord?

Harmony & Theory
#21

Curious if anybody checked out the audio/notation example I posted yesterday . when you factor in the synth brass track, it’s basically non stop maj7 with the 4th, with many add4 voicings in the guitar (usually some instrument is playing the 7 as well, so we are getting that tritone.) If looking for add4 voicings on guitar there are a whole bunch of them there.

audio example:

–> lots of 4th on maj7

–> (notation)

Putting aside overall aesthetic and just focusing on “does it sound wrong” or “does it sound like the ‘bad’ kind of dissonance” I’m curious what people think - in part because there’s a difference between “this will sound dissonant” and listening to something asking “does this sound dissonant to me?”

Ultimately I’d imagine our interest is in the sound more so that the rule.

Through transcribing I’ve often found that things that didn’t sound dissonant or “wrong” then looked pretty funky once I put them on paper. A classic example of that is in the “we don’t need no education” solo at the end, Gilmour briefly plays a B natural note while the synth plays a Bb major chord, and he does not resolve it up or down a half step. I think for a lot of folks if they saw that on paper in another context they’d comment that it is wrong and will sound bad, but obviously very few people either notice or care about that particular clash in that super famous solo, and Gilmour’s usually revered as one of the most melodic/pleasant of all the classic rock guitar greats, so it’s not like the effect produced was super jarring and chaotic.

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#22

My response to you followed listening to the track. Thanks for sharing and have a good weekend.

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#23

ah yes, because of the threading I didn’t catch that it was a response to the track.

But then that’s kind of a thing I was getting to - does F sound bad over Cma7…or do E and/or B sound bad over Csus4…or does it all work just depending on context…

the low registers thing, put an F on the bass of a Cma7 and it’s actually closer to an F ma7 sound (and something I kind of like, actually)

Obviously just chillin on an F while somebody does a Cma7 strum can be harsh, but all these things are about how one uses them

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#24

I don’t think that chord you guys are describing is a C. It’s a third inversion Fmaj7. A fifth describes that particular chord. Which chord tones are represented? For C it’s the root and third. For F it’s root ,fifth and major 7. Just because C is the bass and in this case an octave doesn’t make it a C major.

#25

Dead giveaway. There’s an F in chord.

Playing an f over a Cmajor sounds like shit.

#26

I started to, then quickly realized I was going to want a guitar to follow along and really understand what I was hearing, and I was taking a couple minutes break from work and didnt want to get THAT distracted. I’ll try to come back to it though. :+1:

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#27

A C chord contains a G as the major third. The F is a single whole tone away from the major third making them very close in the scale. The 4th normally replaces the 3rd i.e. suspended 4th chord. Move the F an octave higher and it becomes an 11th which can sound better as it is further away from the 3rd. Also, the third provides the mood or a chord, happy (major) vs sad (minor) and adding the 4th interferes with this.

#28

E is a C chord’s major third. G is its 5th.

F is a half step away from the major 3rd (E) which is even closer than a whole tone. That’s why it is so dissonant sounding.

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#29

I think the flat 9th interval of say E4 to F5 in the context of a C major chord is generally considered/accepted as more dissonant than a half step E4 to F4.

that is, chord on the left is less common than chord on the right:

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image2200×748 152 KB

#30

I’ll confess to abusing the shit out of that Badd4 voicing - you’re right, it’s got this awesome spacey droning qwuality to it that isn’t discordant at all. Shifting the fretted notes down to A for, um, I guess that would make an Aadd9 with the E and B ringing above, sounds so cool that I have to consciously not do it every opportunituy I have, too.

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#31

As in martial arts, we must learn to play the barre chord shape thingy with the open E and B strings so that we learn that we don’t have to play the barre chord shape thingy with the open E and B strings, and instead only use it when it is absolutely necessary.

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#32

I’ve seen all sorts of answers and ideas here; some of which question the basic premise that F sounds bad over a CMaj7m, and, as most jazz texts advise, is an ‘avoid’ note. But I consider this a “given,” since the entire question is based on this premise.
My ideal answer has not been presented here, and it’s an answer that satisfies me completely, since I go by my ear, and therefore seek harmonic stability.
My answer involves questioning the C major scale itself. Is it the most stable and consonant scale if what we want to do is reinforce the key area of C? Would some other scale starting on C do a better job of reinforcing the harmonic area of C?
You could reverse this, of course, and ask “Does a C maj7 chord reinforce the key of C as a “I” function?” I think it does, just as a G7 reinforces the dominant V step in the key of C.
If these things are true, then where does “F” come from in a C major scale? How is a scale created? Is there an underlying principle of generation which produced the C major scale?
I think this goes back to the Pythagoran principle of “stacking” fifths. This would be C-G-D-A-E and so forth. You change the order of intervals, put them back “in the octave,” and get C-D-E etc.
This principle can be demonstrated “by ear” also. Go to a sustaining keyboard, such as an organ, and begin playing these stacked fifths: C-G-D-A-E-B----F? No, that’s a clunker, a tritone, and not a fifth. It should be F#, not F.
But if we start on F, we get F-C-G-D-A-E-B, then repeat. That makes a 7-note scale that is a perfectly consonant stack of fifths. And it happens to be a Lydian scale, and it happens to work with an F maj7 chord.
This is what George Russell was talking about. Jazz is based on harmonic principles, and on what sounds best.
Traditional tonality is not; it’s designed for modulating, and for restless movement.

#33

Though, to be fair, a F# against a Cmaj7 isn’t an especially, value-neutral here, “consonant” sound either, though a bit more so than Fsince you don’t have the tritone beating between the B and the F. There’s an aergument that the “base” scale for modes should be the Lydian and the Ionioan for this reason… but I kind of wonder if the issue here really is jusy as simple as this is the very last pitch you get, stacking fifths off the tonic, if you’re deriving a scale off stacked 5ths, before you start to fill in the gaps of the chromatic scale, and accordingly its relationship with the tonic is maybe a little more tenuous than other pitches.

At any rate, playing an F over a C chord, not a Cmaj7, sounds totally fine, if somewhat unresolved, which makes me think it’s really more about the relationship between the maj7 and the 4, and that this is more of a tertiary harmony thing, stacked thirds rather than stacked fifths.

#34

In jazz vocabulary, it’s very common to play the F as part of an enclosure for the E, that is you would play F D# E, aka, 4 #2 3. The F D# enclosure resolves nicely on the E. And that can be done for every major chord, including dominant. You can find tons of examples in Pat Martino’s phrases. I think it sounds really nice in that context and, as others mentioned, it introduces dissonance, which spices up the solo. In the example I gave, it resolves pretty quickly so it’s not usually perceived as “wrong”. It is a flavor that may not go well with all genres though!
And by the way, there is a version of that enclosure for minor chords too, e.g., in C minor: F E D Eb, aka, 4 3 2 b3, also very common in jazz vocabulary. Note that the 4 is usually considered “pleasant” on a minor chord (in quote because this is all personal preference!) but the enclosure introduces a major 3rd which theoretically does not “fit” the minor chord, but again since it resolves quickly, it’s not usually perceived as wrong.
I learned about this idiomatic enclosure from the book “Line Games” by Randy Vincent, which I found very interesting.

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#35

If C major is the right scale for a C chord (the I chord in the key of C), then why does the note F sound terrible over a CMaj7 chord?

Because while F is indeed part of a C major scale, we have to remember that not all notes of a scale are to be treated equally.

Let’s take a look at the C major scale, itself. It’s notes are:

C D E F G A B.

Since it’s a major scale, that means all of the intervals are major or perfect. Thus, in interval form, the major scale looks like this:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7.

That is, our root, major second, major third, perfect fourth, perfect fifth, major sixth, and major seventh.

That means C is the root, D is the major second, E is the major third, F is the perfect fourth, G is the perfect fifth, A is the major sixth, and B is the major seventh.

Each note in the major scale is also given names beyond this.

1 = Tonic
2 = Supertonic
3 = Mediant
4 = Subdominant
5 = Dominant
6 = Submediant
7 = Leading tone

Now, let’s harmonize the C major scale to get our chords.

By starting on the tonic, and playing a game of leap frog, we can create the chord the scale implies.

With the major scale, our first tier of harmony gives us a major triad, which is spelled in interval form as:

1 3 5.

That is, a root, major third, and perfect fifth.

By continuing up from the fifth, we get our next tier of harmony, the seventh chords. In the case of the major scale, this creates a maj7 chord, which is spelled in interval form as:

1 3 5 7.

Now, let’s add notes to this.

C = C E G.

Cmaj7 = C E G B.

We can already see that a Cmaj7 chord does not contain the F note in it.

The F clashes with the major third, E, which is a semitone away, and it clashes with the perfect fifth, G, because it’s a whole tone away.

Furthermore, the distance between F and B is a tritone, an interval known for its dissonance, and it’s no coincidence that that the V chord of C major, G7, contains F and B in it.

G7 contains these notes:

G B D F.

As we now know, the reason the G7 chord sounds so tense and unresolved in the key of C major, is because two notes of the chord have a strong tendency or pull towards the more consonant notes.

B has a strong tendency to resolve up to the root note C, and F, the perfect fourth, has a strong tendency to resolve down to the major third, E.

Thus, moving from G7 to Cmaj7 or G7 to C creates what’s known in music theory as a perfect cadence.

It’s when your dominant chord moves to the tonic chord, the first chord.

Dominant function chords are chords that contain the leading tone (7), and the supertonic (2) the two most dissonant notes in the major scale.

Now, there are C major chords that do contain an F in them, and they’re extensions. Treated as a chord extension, F can sound consonant, for example, in a Cmaj7(add11) chord.

In short, the reason F sounds quite bad over a Cmaj7 chord even though in the context of C major, F is technically in key, but over a Cmaj7 chord, F clashes with the E note in Cmaj7, and clashes with the G note in Cmaj7.

It does appear in the other diatonic chords of C major, for example the IV chord, Fmaj7, and the V chord, G7, but over Cmaj7 itself, it clashes.

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#36

In my younger days I obsessed over knowing all the spins on altered dominant scales, etc. Anymore, I focus more on chord tones when improvising, and finding passing notes between them. The passing notes can be diatonic to a common scale or just freak chromatic accidentals, to taste.

There is rarely a bad clinker situation if you strive to land on chord tones on major downbeats, or notes that are held for a long time.

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#37

“If C major is the scale for a C chord (the I chord in the key of C), then why does F sound terrible over a CMaj7 chord?”
I don’t think anyone here has really penetrated to the core of this question, because an overview of the entire Western Classical system is necessary; an “outsider’s” view, so to speak. Most likely, a guitarist, not a pianist, MIGHT have the perspective needed, but most guitar players here are so immersed in Western Classical theory that they have never questioned some of its basic tenets. Even “jazz” theory has been muddled by traditional Western theory. After all, as Pat Martino has said, Western theory is the VERY LANGUAGE that all musicians use…there is really no escape from its pervasive influence on musical thinking.
To answer the question, these “givens” must be acknowledged:

  1. Western music theory and practice is not based on harmonic principles completely, but consists of procedures and “rules” which were derived from its linear, voice-leading past, and modes which derived from Gregorian Chant. Thus, we have the C major scale with its “F” and the “Leading tone B” which is not considered harmonically as a chord member of the C-E-G-B major seventh chord. C major seventh chords in the key of C effectively DO NOT EXIST in traditional theory.
  2. Jazz theory is, by contrast, based on HARMONIC principles, not linear principles or procedures. This is why George Russell chose the LYDIAN scale as the most congruent harmonic scale for the pitch center of C. Because it IS the most consonant scale for C. It SOUNDS the most congruent against a C maj 7 chord, and reinforces the key of C better than a major scale. The proof of this is in the “stacking of fifths” from the Lydian F: F-C-G-D-A-E-B, which SOUNDS better than stacking the C major scale from C: C-G-D-A-A-B-(F?).
    The proof of all this must be done by your ear; no amount of theorizing will prove it. HARMONIC TRUTH is in the EAR.
#38

This is similar to what I was driving to by posting actual audio examples. It’s really easy to theorize whether something works or not, but I think often (at least in online discussions) when it’s stated as a rule that X sounds bad, the person stating the rule just hasn’t been exposed yet to contexts where X is used (for things besides just dissonant ‘effect’.) Conversely when it’s stated as a rule Y sounds good , etc

#39

There are some general guidelines, the 11th is typically not often considered as available of a tension on many chords, so on and so on, at least that’s what they’ll teach in an academic setting for the same reasons many people have stated. but what’s good or bad is really up to taste.

Music is art, art is subjective.

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#40

The original question itself is problematic. C major is the right scale for the C chord? Who says?
We could probably argue that C major is the right scale for a Cmaj13 chord, but against the C triad all other notes are arbitrary. As others have mentioned, without context it doesn’t mean anything.

Harmony can sound very different in isolation. Play a tritone on its own and most people will say it sounds horrible. Play a Dom7 chord and it just sounds tense but not grating, the tritone within it doesn’t sound as dissonant as it does in isolation. Same goes for a maj7 chord, the effect is even more drastic - play two notes a semitone apart and it (to most) will sound terrible … yet as part of a whole, the maj7 chord, to most, will sound sweet.

Aurally it’s all subjective, but one thing that is absolutely true - context is everything.

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