What do you make of Segovia’s left hand posture in the video below? While there is some aspect of the pinch grip, particularly with the use of the thumb, the aggressive curvature of the Segovia’s fingers resembles your demonstration of the power grip more than your demonstration of the pinch grip. Segovia’s posture also seems to be characterized by metacarpophalengeal joints closer to the edge of the fingerboard than we might expect from a “naive” pinch grip. Part of what I’m wondering, is whether the “naive” pinch grip is actually what classical guitarists are being taught. That’s assuming you even agree that Segovia’s posture is dissimilar from a “naive” pinch grip.
Edit: It helps to link the video. Section of interest begins around 7:18:
the answer is simpler than this - in classical guitar (mainly with barre chords) you are taught that power comes from pulling towards the body with your ARM rather than solely relying on finger strength.
I won’t speak on classical guitar because I’m simply not qualified to do so .
I can assure you with absolute confidence that this is not what the best electric players do. Pulling the arm toward the body by engaging the muscles of the back is the equivalent of anchoring the picking hand heavily by applying inward pressure. Both actions rob the arms of their mobility and impede playing.
Moreover, pulling the fretting arm requires that the picking arm apply force inward to the guitar to prevent the pulling from causing the guitar to rotate, which is unlikely to be a desirable effect.
Getting back to this
I think @Tom_Gilroy is arguably right about finger independence between ring finger and pinky as being the weakest. Lots of anecdotal evidence to back this up, also thought of as true in most piano schools, etc.
But, this might not apply for some fingerings like 1-3-4 or 4-3-1, in sequence. The sequence might just be a compound of movements (like drumming your fingers on the table repeatedly), for which finger independence is not as important? This fits a lot of PGs sequences, and fast played licks in general. So, maybe there is no real difference in efficieny between 1-2-4 and 1-3-4, as long as it is just the sequence looped?
If it comes to trills however, and general finger independence, I think @Tom_Gilroy is spot on
This is what I was taught re: barre chords in classical context too
This is where we’ve got apples and oranges and the primary way the instrument is held is just different. What Tom says here is absolutely true if you hold an electric guitar the way 99% of electric guitar players hold it. Classical guitarists do it differently. The main contact points on the body of the guitar, as held by classical guitarists, keeps the guitar from moving, even if you were to (gently) pull inward with the fretting arm to perform a barre chord:
That’s more contact points than we get when holding an electric guitar the ‘standard’ way most electric guitarists do it. It’s by default more stable. Almost like rock guitarists that when playing live have an acoustic on a stand and walk right up and play a little acoustic, then get back to their electric playing on the guitar that was the whole time strapped to them. The classical position puts the instrument of that ‘acoustic guitar stand’ type of stability. It’s not going anywhere
Moreover, if a classical guitarist were executing a fast single note run, they would not be pulling back with their fretting arm. They only do this for the instances where they need to hold a barre.
I’ve probably opened a can of worms and derailed Tom’s purpose. It does not seem he’s attempting to show a left hand technique that will work in every situation of every genre/style. He’s trying to shed light on how there are more beneficial options available to us in an electric context and that many are either mistakenly told (or mistakenly assume) that the way classical guitarists do everything is good for all guitar styles. He’s mostly attempting to demonstrate these findings on how to best use the human anatomy to accomplish what elite electric guitarists do.
I’ve known this for decades, but it’s really more and more hitting me that classical and electric guitars should be thought of as different instruments. You pass air through a mouthpiece and use your fingers to depress keys when you play both the flute and the clarinet. You would never play a flute exactly as you play a clarinet though. Classical and electric guitars are (by default) tuned the same. You can play the same notes/chords in the same places. That may be the entirety of the inner part of the venn diagram. I’m being a little hyperbolic there, but there’s really not a tons else in common.
To take it a step further, elite electric shredders are sprinters and classical guitarists are ballet dancers. While each require the same level of accomplishment and athleticism, the way it’s used is just…different. I’m probably more guilty than anyone on this forum, as of late, of drawing parallels between the 2 realms and how we can learn from one and apply it to the other. I think I’m going to stop doing that
The issue here is that the 4th finger has it’s own distinct extensor muscle, however it attaches at a common point with 3rd finger branch of the common extensor. Lifting the 4th while fretting with the 3rd requires exertion of this very weak extensor, which results in fatigue. Lifting with the 3rd finger while fretting with the 4th requires requires that the part of the common extensor which extends the 3rd finger must also pull the 3th finger, which is trying to move in the other direction. Again, this causes fatigue.
Cycling of (1 3 4) or (4 3 1) actually results in fatigue much more quickly than using (3 4) transitions in isolated contexts. These cycles can be executed quickly but you will fatigue your extensors due the frequency of the repetitions of these transitions as the extensors do not have time to recover.
I’m beginning to believe that the efficient cycles (1 2 3), (1 2 4), (3 2 1), (4 2 1) are efficient in part due to the lack of finger independence, with a repeating, directional “wave” of tension moving across the flexors and the extensors. For the the cycles involving a (3 4) combination however, we want to avoid those reps.
As a man with short fingers I may say that thumb against neck was a standard solution for me long before I knew what is right and what is wrong in the world of guitar )
As for using very tip - it kind of make sense in a context of classical guitar, but it’s totally opposite in a high-gain world. Now I relearning to use ‘sausage fingers’ for good left hand muting. And that’s not easy ((
Let me argue then ) For me weakest independence is between middle and ring fingers. More precisely - middle finger pulls ring finger down (though opposite is not true). So if you extend you fingers and try to flex middle finger it would try to pull ring finger down. As for pinky-ring combination - I think it’s not a physical dependence, more like people just don’t use pinky as much, so they just don’t have enough control over it. From my experience as a pianist I would say that pinky goes right after the index finger in my independency chart ) The only reason I try to avoid using pinky sometimes is that it’s deformed and now it’s a bit hard to use after I damaged it when I was a teen.
This really makes a lot of sense, but I am still wondering if this plays a significant role in practical applications. How often do you need to do this to be too fatigued to play a lick well, and how often does that amount of repetition occur in musical applications?
Still my own playing habits match your ideas almost 100%
Wouldn’t you use your pinky way more than middle and ring finger in 3 nps scale playing? Wether you use 1-2-4 or 1-3-4, the pinky is always involved, while ring and middle are situational. Or are you talking about people using 1-2-3 for everything?
With regards to the fatigue, it depends on the tempo. At “normal” fast speeds, say Paul Gilbert type lines, it’s really not a critical issue. The fretting sequences just aren’t usually efficient enough for most fast licks for this to really be the deciding factor. I played PG licks with (3 4) transitions for years without problems.
When lines are constructed so that the fretting sequences are more efficient (repeating efficient digital cycles and the other cases I’ve discussed previously), the fretting hand can play lines at speeds where the development of this fatigue due to (3 4) transitions occurs almost immediately.
Shawn Lane’s fastest lines are built around these efficient fretting sequences, and they can be played faster than “normal” fast licks as a result. Too fast for (1 3 4) or (4 3 1) actually, you can knock out couple of repetitions and then the extensor fatigue is just too much. If you play them with (1 2 3), (3 2 1), (1 2 4) or (4 2 1), you can play those sequences without developing that fatigue.
It’s a bit like string hopping. An occasional hop, or consistent string hopping at a slow tempo, that’s not really likely to result in fatigue. At those tempos, it’s just an inefficient movement. Consistent hopping at higher tempos will exhaust the wrist extensors quickly, if you can even manage to do it cleanly at all.
I mean using in everyday live, practicing etc. Obviously when playing people have to use it a lot, but only when playing. In everyday live it works as a clone of other fingers - you want to grab something - you flex all fingers. Stuff like writing, pinching etc involves mostly first 2-3 fingers, so poor pinky is all alone ((
–Large P.S.–
My 1-3-4 is faster than 1-2-4 and using it doesn’t make my hand tired. So, I guess, it’s just a matter of preferences, anatomical differences, practicing etc.
My point of view is that ftretting movements are too small to consider physical dependecies between fingers (like tendons and stuff). For me it’s more about brain thing. People playing guitar often feel that some phrases are like twister, hand begins to stutter etc. It’s not like fingers can’t do it, more like the problem is in organizing commands from brain to fingers.
I consider the system as some kind of machine. Or a network, if you wish. Brain has no problem sending ‘broadband packets’, like ‘all-fingers - clench a fist!’ or ‘all fingers - extend!’. When it has to send different commands to different fingers - that’s when things get messy.
For example, you can try to flex-extend all your fingers - no problem
Or you can use more interesting stuff, like extending-flexing outer fingers or inner fingers only. Not a problem.
But when you try to use outer fingers on one hand and inner fingers on other hand…
So, is it because of lack of independecy? Nope. You did it using both hand easily. What is the problem then? Too complex command, or more precisely - comlpex commands.
The same goes for fingers on one hand. Once you have complex command (essentialy - a set of different commands for different fingers) - things go wrong. There’s one thing that brain can learn fast - short repeating sequence of commands. That’s why if you keep your fingering consistant while playing it’s much easier
(compare 5-7-8, 5-7-8, 5-7-8 etc on every string
with 5-7-8 9-7-5 5-6-9 etc
which passage you will play faster and with less efforts?)
Finger independency doesn’t matter much. If it was pure physical thing people couldn’t play fast even after years or decades of pratctice. But, as we know, that’s not the case.
It’s just learning how to use you fingers in a unsusual way (not the way provided by nature ))).
Another interesting thing is that 1-3-4 is anatomically more logical to play wholetone-wholetone.
In a relaxed state the distance between 3-4 and 1-3 fingers is almost the same. While using 1-2 and 2-4 requires me to do unnatural stretch using my index finger.
So… My point is that you can create many theories about ideal way of using left hand fingers. And some of them would even be contradicting each other ))
…just keep in mind
I’ll be arguing against some of your points here. I want to stress again that I respect your position, I value your input and I’m against your points, and not against you. I genuinely want to know what more I need to do to convince you to try to implement my ideas in your playing. If the tone comes across as condescending or confrontational, please understand this is not my intention and it’s an undesirable consequence of my professional training.
That may well be the case for you at this time, and I can’t dispute that.
Can I ask how fast? For example, if you modified this example from Shawn Lane’s power licks for (1 3 4) whole/half instead of (1 2 4) half/whole as he plays them, can you move your fretting hand at those speeds without fatigue?
Remember, I’m not trying to dismiss your skill or experience here.
I was a “normal” fast guitar player since I was fifteen. I thought I’d essentially reached my natural limits when I was seventeen. I used (1 3 4) all the time without issue at those speeds and I never got tired.
For a decade I thought that Shawn’s fretting speeds were beyond me. I believed the “freak nervous system” nonsense people said about him. Now, from studying his fretting mechanics and his fretting sequences, I can move my hands that fast. I can even do so with (1 3 4) and (4 3 1). However, at those speeds, (1 3 4) and (4 3 1) are absolutely exhausting. I can manage a few repetitions and then my extensors fatigue. With the other cycles I can maintain those speeds for as long as I wish to without developing fatigue.
Again, it’s a bit like string hopping. Consistent hopping at a lower speeds, or an isolated hop at a higher speed? That’s unlikely to cause any significant fatigue. Trying to hop consistently at high speed is awkward, difficult and exhausting. The speeds where (1 3 4) and (4 3 1) break down is much higher than that of string hopping, but it’s a very similar idea.
None of this means that (3 4) transitions are bad, or that they aren’t valuable in certain contexts.
Again, I’m not meaning to be condescending or confrontational.
If you’re playing (1 3 4) and (4 3 1) cycles at Shawn Lane speeds for extended periods without fatigue, this might well be the case and I will gladly be corrected.
If not, then have I not at least given enough justification for these ideas that it’s worth at least considering them, and trying to implement them? I mean, what more do you want me to justify before you’re willing to consider it? Really, I want to know.
I understand skepticism. I really do. I just want you to be a willing skeptic.
At this stage, with all the work I’ve done on this topic, with everything I’ve considered and studied, what more do I need to do? What do I need to do to get you to say
“I still have doubts, but this is worth trying.”
?
How can you possibly justify this point of view? We could easily say that picking movements are too small to consider anatomical factors and that would obviously be wrong. How small is small enough here? Again, with the case I have already made, how can you make a statement like this with confidence?
My brain can send the repeating (1 3 4) or (4 3 1) “packets” very fast. It’s simple, repeating information, which is a key idea with the EDCs. The problem with (1 3 4) and (4 3 1) is that the hand cannot execute those instructions at those speeds for a sustained length of time. It’s not that you’re sending commands which are too complex, you’re just sending them faster than the machine can do them for a sustained time.
Yes, exactly. EDCs are short, repeating sequences of commands. You can send (1 3 4) and (4 3 1) cycles very quickly precisely because of this, but you’re overloading the hands by doing do. (1 2 3), (3 2 1), (1 2 4) and (4 2 1) cycles do not result in this fatigue.
How can you possibly justify that statement?
I’ve never once suggested it was a “pure” physical thing.
Most “normal fast” guitar players never reach Shawn Lane type fretting speeds even after years or decades of practice. Why do you think that is?
That’s part of it to be sure, but but it’s also about learning to exploit what nature gives to us.
No, not the case at all. The index finger has a distinct extensor with no attachment conflicts.
Again, I’m really trying to better the presentation of my ideas and convince people to try to implement them, even if they have some doubts. What can I do to achieve that?
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I think you have a good argument and what you’re saying is well researched - but if these kinds of movements are mainly applicable to ‘Shawn Lane speeds’ and you state you can ‘maintain those speeds for as long as I wish to without developing fatigue’, why don’t you post a video demonstrating yourself playing them?
I don’t want to give the wrong impression here. Let me be plain
I am not as good as Shawn Lane. I’m not saying I have as expansive a vocabulary of licks based upon these movements as he had, nor that I am as clean as he was.
There are certain examples on Power Licks where I have the capacity to move my hands as fast as Shawn, without getting tired. What I can play at those speeds is getting cleaner and more expansive, but I am nowhere near “finished”.
I discovered these ideas at the end of my 20s. Shawn understood it intuitively at the age of about 12, and by his own admission was sloppy until he cleaned it up later. Even watching footage of Shawn in Black Oak Arkansas at 17 or 18, he still wasn’t quite there yet either.
I’ll happily make a video of a pattern or two if that’s acknowledged and taken into account. I have to do so when my girlfriend isn’t working, so probably not today, but I’d have no objection.
If people are going to discount what I have to say because what I show isn’t totally clean, or the fretting hand isn’t totally synchronized with picking movements, or because the example is non-musical, then yeah, I’m hesitant.
In my experience this is kind of call-out is usually a no win situation. I don’t do it I lose credibility. I do it and the the goalposts get shifted and what I’ve shown isn’t accepted. I know this place isn’t the cesspool that most other guitar forums are, but yeah, there’s still that hesitancy.
I know what you mean about the the no-win situation. I jumped into CtC without much hesitation because Troy was demonstrating his claims with total authority – just as clean, just as fast as Yngwie and EJ. It immediately gives validity to the assertion.
Even though what you’re advocating with EDC and fretting postures sounds legit to me, I’m sure if someone saw a demo that wasn’t quite there, they’d not give it much of a chance. It may do more harm than good.
Come on, fellow mathematician, I know the drill ) Discussing different (even contradicting) approaches is the main way to develop or discover something. Though… don’t throw me in the sea as pythagoreans did )
No problem. I’m far from being advanced player
I don’t know, I haven’t tried them. But it would be hard. 1-2-4 is not my favorite stuff and I try to avoid it if possible.
There may be a reason for this, by the way. My pinky is short (and after surgery it became even shorter) so I have to use specific position when playing on thickest strings. Which determines use of fingers.
From my piano experience. There’s one of that little tricks that you learn through practicing. Once you allow you movements to be just a little bit larger than they should be - speed disappears and you start feeling that ‘interconnections’ between fingers. And piano key pressing movements are waaay larger than fretting movements.
Problem is not in extending itself. Problem is with moving index finger aside (increasing ‘stretching’ between index and middle). In that position movements are way harder than in relaxed position when you keeping your stretch natural.
As one man said ‘The meaning of any fact is just the very fact itself’ (sorry for bad translation). I mean, if that approach helped you to develop speed it means that it worked for you. It doesn’t mean that this approach is universal and that it could help someone else. We need more data )
I don’t disprove your work, and I would like to see your book too, by the way. I’m just saying that it may be a bit more complicated, and as it often happens in the real world - there are more than one way that lead to our goal.
From posts here I can see that you convinced a lot of people, so don’t be dissapointed because of one smartass here )
Great. I’m really glad we can play this game together.
I’m not much of a swimmer either.
That’s cool, we’re all coming from different places and going in different directions.
I suppose I have to consider myself an “advanced” player but I feel silly saying. I too aware of what I can’t do.
What if you modified the pattern to (1 3 4) with whole/half shapes?
Sorry to hear that, and much respect for continuing to move forward from that.
From my experience listen to classical piano virtuosi (Hamelin, Hough, Argerich, etc) movements on piano are also a good deal slower. The keys are weighted too, which aids the extensors in lifting. I can’t claim to be any sort of authority on piano technique, but I don’t think this is apples to apples here.
Most stretches on guitar are done not by the abduction of the fingers, but by skewing the hand to make use of the extension of the index finger.
Section of interest begins around 7:18:
