Inside vs Outside picking

Playing Technique
#1

As far as I know, a lot of players have trouble with ‘inside’ picking, yet seem fine with ‘outside’ picking. I have seen videos where Paul Gilbert, John Petrucci, Steve Morse and Jason Richardson all mention how they either find inside picking typically more challenging, or they try to avoid it.

Is there a reason for this? Is it just that lots of players practice ‘inside’ picking less, and so just aren’t as used to the motions, or is there something more neuanced going on? Are there players that prefer inside to outside picking?

#2

You’ve got it backwards. Paul Gilbert, Steve Morse and John Petrucci all prefer outside picking sequences. I don’t know about Jason Richardson.

Outside picked sequences are more amenable to swiping, which is a plausible explanation why “strict” alternate pickers tend to favour them.

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#3

Haha, sorry yep you’re right! I did mean to put them the other way round! I have changed it now so its the right way round :slight_smile:

So its easier to swipe when outside picking?

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#4

Generally swiping feels and sounds less noticeable on an outside change. Gilbert, Morse and Petrucci all make extensive use of swiping.

The only player we’ve seen who makes extensive use of swiping on inside changes is Jorge Strunz.

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#5

Ah! Thats very interesting :slight_smile:

Do these players still use inside picking on some changes (e.g. 3nps scales)?
If so, is there a reason that inside picking without swiping seems more difficult, or is it because the players rely on swiping for a large proportion of their licks, so swiping seems more natural to them than inside picking?

#6

Most of the players you mentioned do have examples of clean changes in either case, but like Tom mentioned they swipe at times too.

Inside vs outside is really circumstantial though and just another indication that these amazing players don’t have a handle on escape motion. Take a dsx player for example. If you asked them to play 3 notes on the low E followed by 1 note on the A, they’d have no problem. That’s outside picking. If you asked them to reverse that (3 notes on the A followed by 1 note on the E) they’d also have no problem. This would be inside picking. So I assume the report of people preferring one over the other just happens in cases where they are choosing patterns that don’t conform to their escape.

That’s all unless I’ve got it terribly wrong and players’ complaints are more focused on subsequent inside or outside changes, like 1 nps patterns. I’ve put a lot of work into 1 nps playing and have noticed that especially when big skips are involved, outside is easier. But just going back and forth between (edit: adjacent) 2 strings, inside feels easier. I think even in those cases it’s because I’m using a slightly different motion though.

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#8

The motion itself would have to change, or your pick/hand orientation. That’s why it’s kind of rare to find players that can comfortably alternate pick anything. And when I say rare, I don’t mean that we couldn’t rattle off countless players who can do these things (Troy, Tommo, Andy Wood, Martin Miller). I just mean rare in comparison to players that are single escape, which is much more common. I think that’s what it really comes down to when people claim something is “hard” for them. Something that doesn’t suit the trajectory that they are inherently best at.

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#9

Well I went from inside picking to single pick escape and I fully believe in it now, thanks to troys early videos. I been converted to the one god, USX!

All you DSX players, I think you’re mental!

Or maybe metal :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

I think it’s the starting stroke that puts you in either or, troy has a lot about starting on a certain pick stroke.

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#10

It’s quite simple really. USX = Ultra Suck Escape. DSX = Dark Side Escape. Tell me which of those 2 sounds cooler? :crazy_face:

Joking aside, the best escape is the one that someone is best at. That’s really the crux of Troy’s platform. Figure out what you’re naturally good at, be aware of its implications (or limitations, depending if you’re glass if half empty/full) and proceed to conquer the world. It’s awesome you found out that you’re more inclined to USX, just like it’s awesome for someone who found out they’re DSX and uses that as a super power to play cool things.

I put a decent amount of time into developing a USX motion, but a few weeks ago I tried some things to play EJ phrases with DSX and couldn’t believe how much easier it felt to me. I shouldn’t be surprised by this because Troy’s mentioned about a million times that this is broadly what Andy Wood and Joe Bonamassa do when they play EJ-esque stuff.

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#11

Use Se Xorce… no…

I agree with you Joe. I Tried to come up with with a starwars reference for USX but failed, perhaps I should turn to the dark side, easier, quicker… more seductive.

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#12

Ultimate Speed X-Wing

C’mon man it was right in front of you! lol!

Seriously though, no need to turn to the dark side if what you’ve got feels comfortable and lets you play the phrases you want to play. I think unless there’s a musical reason, abandoning a good motion becomes a wild goose chase. I enjoy chasing geese though, it’s fun.

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#13

Ok, dumb question, but I have no idea what “inside” and “outside” picking are.

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#14

Upstroke on G, downstroke on B = inside picking. The pick is playing ‘inside’ the strings.

Downstroke on G, upstroke on B = outside picking. Now the pick is on the ‘outside’.

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#15

It’s worth mentioning too that it’s a complete misnomer and both involve drawing a figure-of-eight movement with the tip of the pick. One is simply the reverse of the other.

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#16

Ah gotcha. And yeah, mechanically these SHOULD be pretty similar, since pick escape is going to be the driver of which side is easier than the other… the first will feel natural to a USX player, second to a DSX, etc.

Thanks!

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#17

Usually when someone says one is easier than the other, what they really mean is doing it consecutively (G then B then G again, for instance), otherwise for sure it’s case dependent on preferred escape. And swiping probably is easier to accomplish, or be unaware you’re even doing, with outside picking, though I’ve seen a good amount of minor inside swiping, too.

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#18

:exploding_head: Yes, time-reversal! What a delightful observation, thank you for sharing it!

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#19

I’ve been arguing this point with “directional” pickers online since 2005. An inside change is not somehow more efficient than an outside change.

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#20

I was reflecting on this one, and do you think it’s true for the fast players? It certainly seems to be more organic than two double-escaped (U-shaped) motions. Any further comments on this?

#21

I suspect that when people talk about inside VS outside picking, they really mean “some repeated back & forth between two strings” (e.g. what you have in the Paul Gilbert lick).

I never really bought the time-reversal argument: sure the trajectory is time-reversal symmetric, but if you time-reverse, you find yourself having different velocities/accelerations at different points in that trajectory.

For example: in outside picking you hit the string just after you reverse your velocity, so you are in the accelerating phase of the pickstroke. In inside picking, you hit the string just before you start reversing the velocity, so you are in the decelerating phase. These do not feel the same to me.

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