Interesting "Bleed"-like single-string picking challenge from "Tenet" film score

OK SO

I’ve spent some time with this, with the interest in the more academic/pedagogical questions in this thread…rhythm, mechanical efficiency, and physical comfort.

So far I have not been able to crack the tempo with any method, but it’s been interesting to note ‘what goes wrong’ with different methods.

When I do pure alternating strokes, it’s very difficult for me to NOT turn this figure:

into this:


Past a certain tempo it’s hard for me to aurally register the difference between these rhythms (personally I’ve found that to be roughly the 120bpm area) but doing the hard ‘stop’ and leaving the appropriate gap after the second upstroke is tricky.

It’s interesting that before trying this out, I/we were talking about potential difficulty of syncing upstrokes with downbeats, but I’ve found that’s not too crazy as it’s something I’ve done a lot - what’s much harder for me is just making that distinction happen.

Doing those as D U D D, unsurprisingly this was easier to keep the correct rhythm at slower tempos, but harder to push to higher tempos. However, I spent less time with the doubled-down stuff, maybe in part because it’s more relevant/broadly useful for me to improve my time-keeping flexibility rather than my downstroke endurance.

Observations I think are interesting:
if we have an ‘even numbered’ pattern that has one occurrence of this 32/32/16th bit, then we wind up with this challenge/question of doing all alternating, or doubling some strokes. If the pattern is odd, we do not have that issue, and instead can coast on a repeating sequence of down/up strokes with no variation in the stroke<–>rhythm orientation:

even:

4 16ths:

6 16ths:

8 16ths:

12 16ths:

etc

odd:

since purely alternating stroeks are possible in ‘one loop’ for these patterns, there’s no ‘double down’ view, and instead the top staff starts with downstroke and the bottom stafff starts with upstroke.

“3s” (bleed pattern):

“5s”

So if one did want to get good at that 32 32 16th rhythm as up down up, I think the odd numbered ones are good for approaching this as we can keep the endurance challenge but stick with one picking orientation.

Of course, for every additional 32/32/16 bit, it flips things again, so if there are two occurrences of it within a figure, the opposite of the above would be true; odd numbered patterns will have to flip, even numbered patterns won’t. Eg, 4/4:

the above will restart on a downstroke each time because the “flipping” mechanism occurs twice.

All that being said, here’s a challenging figure I’ve been messing around with:
(starting with up)


(starting with down)

Basically forces you to really hear and play that distinction between the bleed thing and the triplet, and allows for the same stroke pattern on each repetition.

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@JakeEstner interesting thoughts on this.

I think this is the crux of it all. Fast downstrokes with a DUD thrown in here and there is pretty a requirement in “aggressive” genres for guitar, and DUD D I think is a common staple.

Haven’t picked up a guitar but I’m gonna guess I’d do DUD D / D U / D U

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this strikes me as a questionable inference, given that this is a forum populated by people obsessed with guitar technique, that pepe is one of the forum’s shining stars, and that often with guitar you can learn something fairly quickly if you have the requisite technique down

forgive me if I missed it in the reply to this post or in another, but has this been answered?

We seem to see a lot of people play this riff who can’t sustain tremolo picking using the same motion at the same tempo. Based on what I’ve read on this site, 16th note equivalents at 230 bpm would be extraordinarily fast for anything other than an elbow motion, and people like Teemu Mantisaari and Sarah Longfield seem to be able to do the Bleed riff with wrist or wrist/forearm motion.

I wonder if it would be helpful to have a separate thread on playing the bleed riff.

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They are 32nd notes. I don’t think sustained tremolo speed indicates much about how fast someone could play this sort of riff.

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I think you’re right with regard to the DUDU or UDUD version of this riff. It’s interesting news that it’s fairly common for people who can only sustain ~210 bpm 16th note equivalents to be able to perform repeated 230bpm bursts—as common as it is for anyone to play the Bleed riff with a motion other than elbow, that is.

I suspect that the DUDD version, though, does require comparable tremolo ability, since it effectively is 230 BPM 16ths where two of every six are air strokes.