Is a positive pick point categorically wrong?

[Jakeh15]

So, excluding highly supinated postures like gypsy form, or the three finger grip, is a positive pick point from a typical lightly supinated RDT posture(with pisiform + light contact of the thumb base) always incorrect?

I have a typical RDT DSX motion, but every time I use a typical 90 degree pick point the pick seems to snag occasionally on the string and the pick always rotates into a positive pick point, even if I grip the pick very hard. I’ve tried playing with and without a thumb bend and the result is similar.

For reference my form looks identical to this, just with a curled index finger grip rather than extended finger(I’ve also tried the extended finger grip and the same problem occurs):

Is Pick Depth Slowing You Down? The Floyd Rose Speed Guide, ft. Teemu Mäntysaari

It seems to work okay for DSX/descending economy picking(although somewhat inconsistent at times), but it makes two way economy picking impossible since I end up with a significant positive pick point when I switch to downward pickslanting for ascending sweeps which doesn’t seem to work, and it also makes learning DBX down the road impossible from this form since the pick point is misaligned when I use a neutral pickslant.

If I try to do sweeping or two way economy picking lines that don’t involve any DSX string changes, the pick point automatically returns to the “correct” 90 degree pickpoint that every other player seems to use, and it feels fluid and correct.

I don’t really know what could be causing it? Maybe a DSX motion that’s too vertical? I find it very limiting but I’m not sure how to fix it. The only thing that seems to help is using a thick 2mm pick because the rounded, beveled edge seems to give me some leeway, but it still eventually shifts to a positive pick point.

[Riffdiculous]

In short, no it’s not categorically wrong. You can see here that Paul Gilbert uses a bit of a positive pick point:

Paul Gilbert - Right Hand

It may be that you are trying to get too much stuff (DSX, DBX, two way economy) out of a single form, and it doesn’t really want to work.

[Pepepicks66]

@Jakeh15

lightly supinated RDT posture(with pisiform + light contact of the thumb base)

I’m having a hard time visualizing what this means (particularly “pisiform”, that’s a new one for me lol); is that describing the portion of the video that you linked?

I am a strong advocate for a positive pick point. I think at least 1 in 3 posts I see here in which someone asks for feedback, I recommend they do more positive pick point.

[Riffdiculous]

@Pepepicks66

pisiform

It’s the pinky side of the wrist, so if that and the thumb base are contacting the guitar, the overall form is pretty “flat”.

@Pepepicks66

I am a strong advocate for a positive pick point.

It can definitely help smooth things out. And one of the things I noticed right away in the Brandon Ellis interview here is that he had a ton of negative pick point. So really as long as the results are good, whatever way the pick wants to go, let it go.

[Jakeh15]

Thanks for the responses.

@Riffdiculous

Paul Gilbert uses a bit of a positive pick point

In his case it makes sense since he’s very supinated(notice the base of his thumb is quite far from the strings) so a positive pick point makes sense to ensure the pick points roughly towards the guitar body.

@Riffdiculous

It may be that you are trying to get too much stuff (DSX, DBX, two way economy) out of a single form, and it doesn’t really want to work.

Gambale has pretty much the same setup and achieves DSX, sweeping in both directions, and DBX, so the form is definitely capable of it, it’s just that he can do DSX with a roughly 90 degree pickpoint from that form and I can’t for some reason.

@Pepepicks66

I’m having a hard time visualizing what this means (particularly “pisiform”, that’s a new one for me lol); is that describing the portion of the video that you linked?

Sorry, should have been clearer. It’s the protruding bone at the bottom of your palm on the pinky side.

[Riffdiculous]

@Jakeh15

Gambale has pretty much the same setup and achieves DSX, sweeping in both directions, and DBX, so the form is definitely capable of it, it’s just that he can do DSX with a roughly 90 degree pickpoint from that form and I can’t for some reason.

I’d need to watch his interviews, but I can’t think of any examples of him doing a lot of continuous alternate picking, and most of his pet licks favor descending sweeping. So using almost all economy likely has something to do with his neutral pick point.

@Jakeh15

I don’t really know what could be causing it? Maybe a DSX motion that’s too vertical?

Possibly, since positive pick point compensates for upstroke garage spikes in a similar way to upward pickslanting. You could always post a vid.

[Drew]

When you say “positive pick point,” what do you mean by that? Don’t think I’ve seen that term around here before…

[Pepepicks66]

@Drew I took these pics in an old post!

I don't know why I have this problem - stuck on the upstroke

@357mag I linked an answer before, but I’ll mark up the pictures to make them more noticeable. This is a neutral pick point. Notice how the pick is a right angle / 90° to my thumb. [20211021_175759~2] This is a positive pick point; the angle is now closer to 45°, and pretty much how I hold the pick. [20211021_175822~2] In my experience, the more positive pick point you have, the less the upstrokes will feel stuck. Please try this out and let me know of it makes sense / helps.