Is crosspicking more common in rock than we think?

Playing Technique
#1

I mean, on one hand, the fact that it’s not often seen as a primary picking mechanic in world-class rock, metal, and shred players would seem to suggest it’s not…

…but, on the other, I see a LOT of threads here in the general vein of “what am I doing wrong in my pickslanting?” which a lot of the time seem to end in “actually, that’s crosspicking you’re doing, and with a little work that could be a pretty efficient technique” when Troy (or a number of other players who have developed a good eye for this stuff around here) chime in. Heck, I’m one of the ones who thought he was downward pickslanting wrong until Troy pointed out the weird curve in my pickstroke I had noticed meant I was actually crosspicking.

I’m starting to wonder if it’s just that a LOT of rock players, myself included, sort of instictively developed some form of a two-way-escaping pickstroke to solve a lot of “rock” and “blues” playing challenges, but without the repeated drilling on one-note-per-string patterns bluegrass and flatpickers do, never quite honed the approach to one that was really optimized for fast rock playing, and instead always felt like their picking approach was a little sloppy and noisy and left them sometimes getting hung up in the strings…

If so, if partially formed crosspicking is really pretty common “in the wild” with intermediate-level players (and here I include myself), then a little bit of woodshedding on really optimizing that technique should work wonders for guys like me. In some ways I think just being aware of what I’m doing already has, even though I’m still kind of feeling it out by trial and error. I guess, basically what I’m wondering is that maybe a crosspicking double-escaped pickstroke mechanic is partially formed in a lot of rock players, but we all top out there because the sort of lines that would really help us lock in that technique and take it to the next level just don’t come up much in rock, so the fact players who hone in on another single-escaped-stroke approach (directional pickslanting, two-way pickslanting) don’t really have that hurdle and practice lines that enhance their picking mechanic is the main reason we have so many more pickslanting-driven rock players, while crosspicking is mostly found in world-class flatpickers.

Thinking out loud after way too little sleep, don’t mind me. :slight_smile:

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#2

I absolutely second that.

As I, as a primary upward pick-slanter (which @Troy pointed out to me) am practicing DWPS at the moment to achieve flawless TWPS. I really have to concentrate to eliminate that crosspicking-curve im my DWPS-playing, which seems to almost exclusively pop up on the top 2 strings, especially on the high E-string. It’s hard to get over that habit, as I can’t do rest strokes there to get the correct feeling as a reference point, so I alternate between rest-stroked b-string and e-string.

I think one reason I established that habit is my pick grip. I have very little of the pick sticking out. This means a straight DWPS-stroke let’s my index-finger run into the next string and mutes the picked string with the side of my thumb, that doesn’t happen when I extend my wrist, thus the crosspicking motion.
With short pickstrokes I don’t have that problem with the muting, but the crosspicking motion persists.

Not that I’m mistaken: The crosspicking motion is a nice tool and I’m finetuning it in a pronated setup also, but I want to get rid of it when doing downward pickslanting.

So, yes. I also presume wrist based crosspicking is a common thing in rock-playing, but with rock we usually concentrate on that high-speed >14 nps shredding stuff, which IMHO can’t be done with crosspicking motions.

Thomas

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#3

Aye I reckon so.

As a small piece of evidence I’ll point to a couple of exercises suggested to beginning alternate pickers:

0-2 on the low E followed by 2 on the D, cycling in repetition (or, 0 on the low E followed by 0-2 on the D) , strictly alternate picked. I can’t see how that teaches anything other than some kind of double escaped pickstroke.

Then, the one that EVH mentions in an interview somewhere, where you go up B Phrygian* 7-8-10-7-8-10 then up to 7 on the A string and keep going in that fashion (so B C D B C D E C D E F and so on). Because it never falls into a tidy pattern of X notes per string or string changes after such and such stroke it again only makes sense to me as an attempt to inculcate crosspicking.

This post would make more sense if I tabbed these out properly but I hope it isn’t completely unclear.

*Or of course any scale you fancy, that was just what he used as an example. I think. I’m failing to remember exactly where I saw it.

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#4

Curved picking movements occur all the time. Two Pickslanting requires it, for example - that’s how you change the picking path. But whole sequences of the curved movement are not common. And most of the fast scale players who learn to make the occasional curved movements as part of two-way pickslanting do not generally appear to learn how to make whole sequences of them. This is why you see players falling into these two general camps - the continuously curved, and the occasionally curved. And that’s why we coined these terms. Someone like Morse, for example, is an outlier in rock because he makes the cuved movement continuously, even when he’s playing on a single string where it wouldn’t technically be necessary.

So when I say crosspicking, I’m not just referring to the curved pickstroke. I’m referring to a sequence of them, as a playing style. The counterpart stylistic choice is when you try to split the movement in half whenever possible and only make the half that fits your string change. That’s two-way pickslanting. You can almost see it as a form of economized alternate picking.

If you want to think in clockface terms, the crosspicking player does 902 or 1003 for an entire phrase. The two-way pickslanting player does either 2 or 9, and uses a 902 to connect them. Same thing for the pronated crowd. They would either 10 or 3, and use 1003 to connect them.

So “crosspicking” and “two-way pickslanting” to me are higher-level categories that describe either phrases or even someone’s overall playing style. They can be based on exactly the same underlying movements though.

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#5

Sorry I think I only partially got the question! You are referring to players who do actually make sequences of these movements as their base movement, as “crosspickers” but maybe aren’t as aware of it or good at it.

I think this is possible. However I also think it’s possible that a lot of players make a less efficient form of this where the angle is too severe and can’t be done quickly with any amount of practice. This is why they most likely end up thinking there is something wrong with their picking that is affecting speed - because there is.

Meaning, we’ve seen clips in technique critique right here where players complain of speed limits and arm tension. And I now think a certain amount of these people are doing something closer to 9012 or 901, where the pick makes a hard right angle at the string. The one movement stops, the other one clicks in. This kind of movement isn’t technically stringhopping, at least by our definition of “repetitve” movement. But it also can’t be done quickly and will lead to arm tension over time.

So yes I think it’s possible you have a lot of players out there making some sort of curved movement, but there is a big difference in feel between something like 902 and 9012, and I bet a lot of players are doing 9012 and will most likely never fix that without explicit instruction as to how.

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#6

Troy - yeah, this, this is exactly what I was getting at. I guess, that badly-formed pickslanting is pretty rare because once you develop a pickslanting technique (provided you optimize the way you build lines to support it), there’s really not much to limit your technique - it’s a pretty simple motion.

Crosspicking, on the other hand, the sense I’m getting from your session the other week is that you’re probably NOT going to get the double-escaped curve right as a repeated pickstroke technique unless you’re working on something that forces you to do it. Since one-note-per-string lines aren’t a really common part of the rock vocabulary (and where they are, sweeping is more common), then you have a lot of guys in my shoes, probably - they have a partially-formed crosspicking motion, but in the 9-0-12 to 9-0-1 range so it gets them through a lot of playing situations but isn’t as efficient as a 9-0-2 mechanic would be, so it comes agross as arm fatigue or tension. I certainly struggle with this in my playing, where my max alt-picking speed isn’t THAT fast (been a while since I checked, but single-string I probably was maxing out around 16ths at 170-180bpm, which isn’t exactly shabby but is way below what some guys here can do and is slower than someone with two decades under his belt playing technical guitar should be capable of, IMO), and if I try to play fast repeated runs involving string changes I struggle with fluidity and arm tension (as well as accuracy).

Idunno. I just wonder if the shred canon is more supportive of pickslanting techniques than it is of crosspicking simply because the types of lines we tend to play don’t FORCE you to get your double-escapes as clean as flatpicking rolls do, and that 9-0-12 or 9-0-1 crosspicking motions are a common dead end for a lot of players. If so, that’s a pretty easy fix for a lot of guys who can’t figure out why they cant play faster than they do. Figured I’d post up and ask to get some discussion going and see what all you guys thought.

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#7

Is that necessarily true, though? Given an efficient crosspicking technique, is there any reason it can’t be just as efficient as a single-escaped pickstroke?

#8

I think I went to bed on Live day a bit earlier than I should have, where do I need to zoom to in the video to get the lowdown on 902 vs 9012?

#9

If you’re asking how come some genres seem to associate with certain picking techniques, yeah, I think that’s pretty much it. Historically these these motions have been learned in large part by trial and error, with some general hints thanks to instructional material.

And just like in rock where we all heard the standard talking points about tremolo, and “making small movements”, and going fast in a straight line, the bluegrass teachers definitely do actually talk about crosspicking in a roundabout way. Steve Kaufman’s “Picking Up Speed” instructional video is a great example of this. He doesn’t come out and say, you must make a curved picking motion, and it must be done this specific way. And there are moments when he actually looks to be stringhopping, especially when doing the usual “demonstrating this movement for you” slightly exaggerated motion for the cameras. Same thing Batio does in Speed Kills, and probably everyone has done. But then he talks about trying to make the movement being as large as possible (!). And he talks about how you can’t tell from observing the movement what kind of pattern you’re playing. Same way we did in the broadcast.

So the implications are all there in all these genres that lead people in the right direction. But given only basic hints, a certain amount of players will break through and figure out certain things. But a lot, myself included, won’t - even with large amounts of trial and error. Not without more specific instructions and some conscious awareness.

In guitar, only the Gypsies really boil it down to a standard technique, and their results are uniformly high. Classical music has a similar approach. But as I’ve learned from living with a violinist, the teaching is actually not that informed as to the movements being made, and players are often just as unaware of what they’re doing mechanically as the players we interview. But they enforce certain postures and positions, and that limits the amount of trial and error. They also start really young, when people are better at trial and error. And let’s be honest, there’s also a serious weed out. If you can’t figure it out, that’s it - you don’t get to go to conservatory!

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#10

More or less the first hour is the clockface stuff, give or take. Check out the timeline, you can see from the clip titles what’s being discussed:

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/crosspicking-with-the-wrist/

We’re uploading tab now…

#11

I think sizable percentage use a curved pick-stroke. Even if they don’t do a double-escaped motion… it’s still a great technique for multiple reasons. As EJ has said, his 2NPS playing got much better when he started to integrate his fingers so that he can ‘pull away from the strings’. If you take a careful look at this method… it create a teeny curve to it. It helps him with his DWPS 2NPS because it allows for more time above string level… and it also gives him a stronger attack with the string. Also, Andy Wood continues to use a curved approach, even when he’s doing single-escaped faster runs.

But back to double-escaped picking. I think it is a commonly used technique. As always, I am not a big fan of using the term ‘cross-picking’ to encompass all forms of double-escape picking methods. My double-escape technique and style are so completely different than country/bluegrass cross-pickers… I think its offensive to them to call ‘me’ a cross-picker.

#12

Yes and no. I am one of the few here that now has a one-pick-stroke-to-rule-them-all method… and I can use it to go extremely fast, faster than I would ever want to play. HOWEVER… when I use it specifically for 1NPS runs… I have to use a more articulated version of that same movement to reliably get far enough above the strings to do 1NPS picking. And at that level of articulation… I seem to have a speed limit of about 170 bpm 16th. However… I am still new to all of this… and really just started 1NPS alt picking in October, so this may be something I can improve on, I dont know.

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#13

Who knows ?
That said it seems a lot of elite players doing crosspicking relies on a shortened curve for faster stuffs, and it’s basically 2wps, like Al Di Meola or John McLaughlin would do (correct me if I’m wrong here).

I think the whole point about crosspicking (in the sense of double-escape) is that when mastered at high level it enables you to play evenly whatever the string combination you want to play : 1, 2, 3 or more nps, skipping string, zigzaging 1nps etc … So it might be slower than a 3 or 4 nps lick, but overall there is no other pick technique that allows you to achieve this. Also it doesn’t really matter if you have to start a phase or a pattern with a downstroke or an upstroke (though surely players have preferences)

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#14

So what does it look like when the picking hand traces a 9-0-2-1-0 outline on the clockface?

Hopefully not this:

image
372CC3AE-0231-44A5-B0B1-22A4BBEF60D8.jpeg630×1200 118 KB

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#15

Yes, definitely. The curve never goes away… .but the faster speed requires it to be shorter. And at least for me… my 3NPS, as well as other patterns kinda become a pseudo 2WPS. Basically arching/swinging up a tiny-bit higher when I do a string transfer. It really looks like there is no change whatsoever between string xfers, but its there.

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#16

I know that - speaking personally - the deviation becomes way less pronounced if I try to pick as fast as I’m capable of… But, I also know that I’m definitely NOT at the caliber of playing I’m chasing, which is why I’m here asking questions about technique. :smile:

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#17

I haven’t watched the Crosspicking workshop yet (saving up some money to start my membership again) but what are these 9o2 and 10o3 movement? This must be a new concept you guys have come up with to explain the mechanics behind Crosspicking?

My understanding of Crosspicking is there are kind of 2 approaches for the wrist- supinated and pronated. Within these categories you have different movements that create different pick trajectories (DWPS/UWPS) and you combine the lower half and he upper half of the movements to create a smooth U shaped arc- these movements will be Deviation and extension/flexion and whether you are supinated or pronated will determine the trajectory that these motions caused the pick to escape.

#18

It’s analogy about clocks that I like to use to understand wrist movement. You have a solid understanding of this stuff so it won’t necessarily be new information for you, but I still think it’s super helpful for a number of reasons to be able to put an actual number on a wrist movement.

Rather than recap two hours of discussion here, I suggest signing up for the free trial and watching the broadcast.

#19

you beat me to the 90210 reference LOL

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#20

I admit that reference was a low hanging fruit!