Hey all - Wasn’t sure where to post this. I know we have the Joscho Stephan interview but is there any Troy Grady/CtC video where the Gypsy Jazz floating hand picking technique is analyzed in-depth (e.g., clockface motion, angles, all that nerdy stuff)? I know the gypsy jazz technique is USX; do I just read that part of the primer? I like the really technical details; I find that it really helps me. Thanks!
1 Like
Would be really cool to see a slowdown of Stochelo Rosenberg or even Paulus Schäfer doing those insane descended minor arpeggios with consecutive downstrokes. I have only seen really terrible quality video from the Rosenberg Academy, and it is zoomed out old school video quality. You can see them as downstrokes, but it is one angle with not much of a description as to what he is feeling trying to accomplish such an impossible feat. Paulus seems to have some mittens of power on him, his tone is killer. Like it is a cake walk, 
.
Here is a more chill vibe of him doing it not too fast as he does some of the descended chord all downstroke stuff.
1 Like
Check out videos by my friend, Denis Chang. He’s an authority on the style, and has worked with many of the top players in the style.
He just put this one up:
He also runs www.dc-musicschool.com with a ton of instructional videos on the gypsy style, including ones featuring players like Stochelo Rosenberg, Bireli Lagrene, etc.
And he just published a book on gypsy picking technique:
He might not use Troy’s terminologies, but if one dude on the internet knows his shit about Gypsy Jazz, it’s Denis.
1 Like
great, thanks!! i’ll check those out. im surprised though, nothing from Troy Grady/CtC on this? there’s so much content now that i’m ironically having trouble finding stuff haha
There might be some more information in the forearm motion section of the picking primer?
Troy mentions Joscho’s technique in his most recent video about Reverse Dart Thrower, definitely worth a watch if you haven’t already 
If I recall correctly from what I’ve seen Troy post on the forum, there can be slight variations in the typical Gypsy Jazz flexed form. Some players use a blended motion of forearm and wrist (the wrist half of the motion being RDT), while some players use the flexed form but pick almost entirely from the wrist (also RDT).
In this video Troy goes over escape angles using a Gypsy Jazz form, might also be worth a watch:
2 Likes
OP here:
Okay, found something really good here: https://troygrady.com/primer/reference/motion-mechanics/forearm-motion-reference/chapter-2-identifying-gypsy-forearm-motion/
It’s already helped me. But now I have a theoretical question for all you CtC nerds out there: Start listening around 8:20 (he also mentions this point elsewhere in the vid).
Why does Troy say that GJ players use wrist flexion and extension when picking but doesn’t mention anything about ulnar/radial deviation? I get that there’s forearm rotation going on but the escape is USX and thus that involves some degree of ulnar/radial deviation as well; it certainly looks that way when I’m playing. Isn’t it rare for someone to be using purely wrist flexion/extension without any sort of deviation? I’m just not understanding the theory here.
You have to analyze the players of the style, some will double down wherever whenever. That same player might actually do the down stroke, up stroke 2 note per string line, or they might double down the entire thing. all down strokes across all six strings some times 10 down strokes in a row during a diminished cross string run. They will also just double down the 2 note per string fragment in a musically ascended cross string phrase because it is just either inherited possibly, they learned these moves very young, maybe taught it that way, or maybe that was originally the way they first learned that line/fragment/lick combination/gypsy jazz loop. i am still only about 85% of these guys speeds, they are insanely fast at it, where it is just something they don’t even perceive or think about, and are more focused on the lines. when you learn about 15-20 phrases with these moves you get more dialed in and it becomes more natural feeling to your picking hand.
I recently transcribed Mozes Rosenberg’s cover of Badinerie but he starts that line off the A string so it’s not quite 10, but still 8 downs in a row.
I would say he may have just flubbed up his words I would guess. He obviously knows about pure ulnar/radial picking.
Watch the most recent primer update about RDT motion. Might explain a few things.
1 Like
Ulnar/Radial deviation is sort of at odds with flexion and extension. Sure, there will be some slight overlap unless we’re talking extremes (i.e. pure deviation like 9 o’clock → 3 o’clock or pure flexion extension like 12 o’clock → 6 o’clock). But it’s going to be more one than the other and it’s probably hard to think of us commanding both at once. Al Di Meola is like 2 o’clock → 8 o’clock, but he’s most likely just trying to move his wrist back and forth. With the gypsy players I think what’s happening (like in in Joscho’s case) is that’s it’s more toward the ‘pure’ flexion/extension. Probably something like 1 o’clock → 7 o’clock. I think that’s why Troy doesn’t say anything about deviation: it’s just not really relevant to the motion.
To me, that statement doesn’t quite make sense. Rotation, on its own is most likely going to be USX, given that we’re so supinated in these examples. That’s tilting the arc on its side enough that downstrokes will trap and upstrokes will escape. That’s the Eddie Van Halen tremolo. It’s as close to entirely rotation as what we’re going to see and it’s clearly USX. Adding deviation would probably just cause a train wreck.
I think that’s sort of what I’d mentioned above where this isn’t a pure flex/ext but just slightly offset (1 o’clock → 7 o’clock). So, we could say there’s a little deviation there.
TL;DR;
To me the important thing is how do we do these motions? What do we ask our bodies to do in order to execute the motion? When I do a 1 o’clock → 7 o’clock, all I’m really thinking is to move like I’m knocking on a door and whatever offset I need to bring in that teeny bit of deviation I’m not even thinking about. Probably the playing posture takes care of it for me, I guess.
Yes, the “forearm” motion tutorials cover this. You can find them here:
The “flexed form” is what Gypsy players use, and that lesson is here:
However you should follow through with the whole section because there’s stuff in there on rest strokes and other important topics.
Technically, Gypsy players use a motion which is often more wrist then forearm. But they also flip-flop between more wristy and more forearm variations of the motion depending on what they are playing. These Primer instructions are general enough that it shouldn’t matter too much. Assuming the general form and trying to get a smooth tremolo happening is the best way to start.
I’ve seen beginner Gypsy players who had clearly studied Gypsy technique because their overall form looked typical, and they could do a “gypsy downstroke” with the trademark loud, attacky sound. However they had no fast continuous alternate picking motion. As a result they were essentially non-functional as lead players.
So as with all picking techniques, getting smooth, fast continuous motion on a single string is the best first goal. If you can do that, you can do the downstroke — but not the other way around.
4 Likes
heh this is why i hate these terms, i always goof them around. i said ulnar and radial, haha true deet da dee moment, what i meant to say was pure pronation and supination turning with a flexion of the wrist. the wrist never does any extension. of course this is just the easy way i explain it to myself, plenty of other things could be going on.
1 Like
thanks Troy and all!
i uploaded a vid on my public page (User Homepage – Cracking the Code)
called “gypsy trem” (uploaded 10/31) where i do forearm/wrist trem on the B and G strings via flexed form. i’m curious for y’all’s thoughts:
- I feel like i can’t bring this up to a respectable speed. my flex/extension table tap maxes out at 200 (ie anything after 200 and the tension is too much), but my trem here is pretty slow compared to that. heck, i can’t even dream at this point of doing trem at 180.
you’ll see another video in my dashboard called “dsx trem” (uploaded 10/31) where you’ll see me do USX trem that isn’t gypsy form that feels a lot smoother and quicker (but even that isn’t so quick).
oh and fyi that other vid is ironically called dsx trem because i am also trying to work on my dsx trem. i start that vid with usx trem (intentionally, to show a baseline) and then i tried to switch to what i thought was a dsx motion halfway through. after reviewing the footage i realize that i’m still doing usx (or worse, a fully trapped movement) and never change, but that’s a separate issue that i’m working through via the rdt section of primer.
- back to gypsy trem: as you’ll especially notice on the G string, i lose form and end up doing this weird grabby thing where i start hitting the upstroke super loud and clumsily and not really hitting the downstroke. but i’m not clear on how my form is changing so i’m not sure what to do to remedy this.
1 Like
when it comes to gypsy jazz picking technique you could also seek out christiaan van hemert or denis chang for more information on different forms. they have been around. analyzed, talked with many different amazing players from all around the world.
2 Likes
I watched the gypsy video. Sounds pretty good! In responses to your statements:
I’m not great at these finer details in USX, but to me, that looks like (particularly on the B string) there’s more rotation in it than flex/ext. Not sure if I’m right or not, but if I am that would explain why you aren’t getting the same speeds you got in your table tap test – different motion
I noticed the G string didn’t seem as smooth (and it doesn’t look as obviously “USX” to me as what you did on the B string). You mention not being sure what changes, but there was a very apparent pause between the tremolo on the 2 strings and what looks like some “grip adjustment”. What happens if you just go from B to G with no pause?
The other general thing I observed is how flat your wrist looks compared to Joscho and also Troy (when he’s doing his gypsy motion). They both have a very apparent “flex” in the wrist. I’m unclear if this has some mechanical implication, but I do know that when attempting to get a motion going, specific setup imitation like this can be helpful. There’s a fine line there, just due to physiology, but in this case the 2 setups look drastically different.
You:
Troy:
I know the angle of the image is different, but this is still a drastically different setup.
Last observation, that may or may not be important, is your pick’s path in relation to the string. Rather than cutting through it, it appears like the string is an obstacle and the pick travels around it. I only noticed it when watching your video in extreme slow-mo, so maybe everyone has something like this happening in their picking. Watching Joshco in extreme slow mo, I see more of it than I was expecting as his pick just looks like it’s traveling back and forth in a straight line when watching him at full speed. Still, I 'd say the path his pick travels in general possibly looks more straight-line-ish than yours.
Maybe that’s something else to be aware of, maybe it doesn’t even matter, not sure. But you mentioned a “grabby” thing happening and feeling something that is the opposite of smooth sounds like it could be holding you back. “Pick point” (i.e. the orientation of your pick, whether it’s pointing more towards the headstock, or floor or ceiling) can help this some. I thing I do to get the pick point dialed in is to relax my grip so the pick flops, do a tremolo and allow the pick to naturally rotate to where it wants to, then firm up the grip again.
Anyway, great playing! Definitely looks like you’ve got the start of something very good.
1 Like
Hmmm I like this, I am going to try it out - Thanks for sharing, Joe!
1 Like
thank you! I’m going to work on this, with your thoughts in mind.
Check out 6:46 of the Primer here: Chapter 1 – What Is Dart Thrower Wrist Motion? – Cracking the Code
Here, Troy says that Joscho Stephan is using RDT in this clip. How?? I get that his palm is facing the headstock and that might indicate an RDT-er. However, the wrist motion is clearly USX and looks like a classic “regular” dart thrower motion. I get that when he does his tremolo strum thing, that is RDT. But his picking here looks very DT. Can anyone explain? I don’t see how you can do USX and also use RDT, given the way the wrist is moving along the clockface.
I am fairly certain most of the time Joscho would be using prontation and supination turning style motion with a flexed wrist. So to explain this i would say lay your whole arm flat on the table no bent wrist palm down. Now turn the hand to make it palm face up. That is the motion, now off the table palm face down bent the wrist down toward the floor. Do the same palm up palm down in flexed position. That is the motion, it is a turning motion. Like turning a round door knob, or a key in door knob. The only difference is the wrist is just in that flexed setup. The way I trained it was the rest stroke. As you rest if you decide to do an upstroke you turn the pick out through the string to the escaped upstroke. If a down stroke you turn the pick down to the next string and rest on that string. This is a very slow process, and a very conscious one that takes time. I was learning a song with solo as well as with a few technique exercises. And about 2 months later the motion started to click.
Around here I will always be a big advocate of the rest stroke as I saw what it did for my picking consistency, and how it helped get me further in my picking journey. It is almost like how you articulate words with your tongue. The first time you learn some new phrase, or come up with one. You latch on to the picking articulation via the rest stroke moves, this gets much faster the more phrases you learn. And within about 1 or 2 days you will have the picking developed for new phrases, even new melodies, so well it can be shocking.
Now this isn’t to say he wouldn’t do the pull the pick out and down through the string using the more straight motion from what i see around here is called dart thrower and reverse dart thrower. I imagine given his elite status he probably does both, depending on situation and maybe just situation might use one or the other.
1 Like
thanks! yeah, i get how you do the typical gypsy rest stroke but I guess my point is calling that “reverse dart thrower” seems to be the most inaccurate way to describe that motion.
right and i dont think it is called that this is what they are referring to as dart thrower read below having just read that wall of text outlining turning.
If you are having trouble with the other motion the only way I can try to explain it is by thinking of it like pulling the pick straight up through the string from the rest for an escaped upstroke, and pushing the pick straight down through the string to a downstroke from the rest to rest on the next string. It won’t be a turning motion. It might have some though, but I have done the turning thing so much now that I rarely do the straight escape style picking.
one is curved escape the other straight line escape if you are plotting the sharp point of the pick in a 3d space thats what motion it would draw.
and what you will find is they have different motions for different phrasing/techniques like look how amati schmitt does his tremolo on his song sonny day. even cesario filho uses that middle finger plant, in certain picking stances it can help tremendously.
sorry for the confusion. in the clip i sent you, Troy expressly calls Joscho’s picking an RDT motion while showing what seems like an obvious not RDT motion, hence my confusion with the video. i’m not having trouble with the motion itself