Yeah that blew my mind when I first saw Troy’s stuff. I thought people just played whatever they felt like. Not the case though, it’s all very specific. Yngwie and Eric Johnson always change strings after an upstroke (or they slur) and start a new string on a downstroke. John McLaughlin and Al Di Meola always change strings after downstrokes and start the new string on an upstroke. Neither of these players seem limited and can even freely improvise within their own frameworks.
1 Like
Well then, that’s all I need!
1 Like
John is probably the stricter example of this. Most of his fast stuff is downstroke escape. There are occasionally moments where he does upstroke escape via the forearm helper. His technique is easier to see / understand.
In Al’s case, his vocabulary while pattern-based doesn’t really always adhere to downstroke switching like you’d expect. There is definitely swiping at times because you can hear the open strings being hit. Especially on those “Technical Difficulties”-style sixes patterns. The question is what is happening when you can’t hear it, like on Race With Devil. I would have to guess there is swiping there too. But there may also be certain phrases where he has learned to do the two different escapes via the wrist, in an idiosyncratic way for just those phrases. But we’d really need a Magnet view to know. TLDR Al’s vocabulary is a less ideal example of someone who sticks with what “works” for their picking motion.
2 Likes
I understand. When I was teenager learning guitar, even the idea that you would try to match exactly one pickstroke with exactly note one seemed too fussy to me, like this couldn’t be what people were doing. I just wanted to go fast with the picking hand and hope the left hand matched up.
In reality, it’s kind of both. A lot of this stuff is learned at faster speeds, but with an awareness of where certain pickstrokes land. Like when you have a pattern that starts on a downstroke, and you can feel the downstroke, but you don’t pay too much attention to the notes in between. That’s how you do hand synchronization.
For now, that’s where you should start. You need to try to synchronize the hands on simple single-string patterns like the Yngwie six-note pattern:
Your motion is very fast, so can slow down the motion a little bit as you do this. But don’t go so slow that the motion is not elbow any more. You want to only go as slow as you need to, where the technique is still the same technique as when you play fast. Otherwise, you won’t really be learning your “fast” technique, just some other one that doesn’t work as well.
Let us know how you make out.
2 Likes
Hi @Troy ! I’ve been trying that video(Six-Note pattern). But my fretting hand can’t keep up with the picking hand or metronome messes all up. When I try to pick slower I unintentionally return to my old, slower picking technique and can’t pick fast enough. Do you have any tips or tricks?
Interested what Troy has to say too. In the meantime, here is my anecdotal story
That Yngwie 6 note pattern…I kind of suck at it, as compared to other patterns. Meaning, that’s not my fastest fretting hand pattern. All you really need is some pattern that you can play very fast with your left (EDIT- fretting) hand. Tom Gilroy did some really great work researching getting the most out of our fretting hand speed. If you haven’t read them yet, I’d recommend these threads. They are long, but if you plan on playing anywhere near the speed of your super-powered motion you showed us, you’ll need this.
For the immediate TL;DR version, you’ll probably find you are fastest with patterns where you can play (fretting hand) index -> middle -> ring (repeat over and over) OR index -> middle -> pinky (repeat over and over). The reverse of each of those cycles should be just as fast too. So, ring -> middle -> index OR pinky -> middle -> index
These are fast because each finger gets the duration of 2 notes to prepare for its next usage and it avoids the typically weak ring/pinky combo.
So if you could just loop this sextuplet over and over, making sure your picking hand is in sync, you’ll be well on your way:
|-10-12-13-10-12-13--10-12-13-10-12-13--10-12-13-10-12-13--10-12-13-10-12-13--
OR
|-10-12-14-10-12-14--10-12-14-10-12-14--10-12-14-10-12-14--10-12-14-10-12-14-
Feel free to move that shape to different locations on the neck to find where you feel most comfortable and can do it your fastest.
2 Likes
Thank you for all the info. I’ve been playing for hours now and can’t feel my finger tips so I’ll be sure to try them next session. I got a little disappointed after not getting good results but there is always tomorrow 
Number one, don’t play for hours. It’s dangerous and you’re just risking injury. If you need me to make an arbitrary guess that will keep you out of the injury zone, then I’ll say 40 minutes. If you haven’t figured out something that works with that much time, then throwing more time at it isn’t going to do anything but repeat whatever wasn’t working.
Metronomes only make this harder, because you’re trying to synchronize to an external tempo. That’s secondary. The main goal is synchronizing to yourself, i.e. one hand to the other, and you don’t really care what the tempo is. So I would turn that off for now.
Are you sure the left hand really isn’t “keeping up”? Meaning, is it really going slower than the picking hand? Don’t just assume because things sound off that you know what’s actually happening. Instead, film yourself and watch in slow motion to see what’s actually happening. You have to know what the problem is before you can fix it.
What does the camera show you? Is the first note of the pattern synchronized with the correct pickstroke? Is it just one of the interior notes that’s off? If so, then try different patterns and see if any work better. Try fretting 1234 or 4321 and playing units of four where the target is the first downstroke. Try 4111-2111-4111-2111, like the AC/DC song “Thunderstruck”. Is that any better? Always film and watch and see what is really working.
Test and test again.
4 Likes
Oh dear god. Give me your elbow.
2 Likes
Haha just play some button-mashing games and you’ll be good to go. (Just kidding, but maybe it really does help )
1 Like
Thank you! I got a lot of stuff to try now.(And better safety )
Also, I know you are busy but I just want to say this site rocks, I wish I found it earlier but still very happy!
Hello, it’s me again. So I filmed my playing and tried some sequences suggested here. But I couldn’t understand what is wrong. I feel like the first note is generally correct. But rest is garbage. I tried several exercises and it doesn’t really matter which one I try I get similar results. I tried exercises suggested by @joebegly too.
Also I filmed from my phone and recorded from Amplitube and tried to combine them, it’s not the best quality but I hope it’s enough.
Maybe this style of playing is not for me, I don’t know. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
To me, what you’re doing looks like the beginnings of figuring out a motion that’s new to you. It stops/starts a little but I think that’s normal. I’d just keep doing a little bit of what you’re doing in that video for a few minutes at a time. It will clean itself up. Maybe you’re expecting too much too soon??? I think you’ve got a phenomenal fast mechanic and it looks like you’re maintaining the motion when you introduce the fretting hand. I’ve noticed in my own playing and seen countless threads on here from others where introducing the fretting hand just kills the picking hand mechanic. Sort of like what would happen if you brushed your teeth and tried to comb your hair with the other hand lol! I think you’re doing a great job of not letting this happen and you’re making good progress.
1 Like
Thank you for your encouraging words. I’ll keep testing and see if it it gets any cleaner.
Joe is correct, the starting and stopping of the motion is normal for a new technique. Over time you will learn how to do it smoothly and consistently for longer periods of time. You’re off to a great start with this.
However…
Sorry for the confusion here on what we mean by using your “fast” technique. This technique is actually “too fast” for what you’re trying to do here. It is hyperpicking technque and it is so fast that most people can’t use this for playing lines where you have one pickstroke per note. Instead, you should think of hyperpicking as more of a synchronized tremolo. Great hyperpickers, like John Taylor, can do things like measure out exactly four or eight pickstrokes per note, at very fast speeds, and get some awesome effects, like this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CC2Y9pKJEf3/
Again, you have a great start with this technique. Over time, you can definitely learn to do things like what John is doing. However you should think of it like its own language or mode that you drop into, where you are playing multiple pickstrokes per note. At least at first.
For single note lead playing at slower speeds, you need a technique that can go a little slower and still be smooth. I’m sure your elbow technique can do this. What does it look like if you slow it down a little bit, where it doesn’t feel vibrational any more, but is still fast? Show us a clip of what your tremolo looks like at that speed.
Sorry for the lack of clarity here. This is why it’s important to look at video. If someone gives you advice without actually looking at your technique, they could be giving you the wrong advice.
I hope this isn’t off topic, but do you know how John is able to use what I assume is a DSX motion, play an even number of notes per string AND start each string change on a downstroke? I mean, I guess that’s what’s happening. It’s so fast and blurry I can’t tell lol! Maybe he’s starting on an upstroke? I know when you coached me into using a faster elbow mechanic you’d also advised some tremolo melodies. I could always do them fine on a single string, but due to the above question I couldn’t change strings with it. Starting on an upstroke felt weird, and changing in the middle of the beat that would allow a change after a downstroke messed up my rhythm too.
For example, this just won’t work with DSX
It would either need to start with an upstroke or change to the new string a 16th note early:
That’s hard at the 220+bpm territory. Does that make sense?
I recall you linked a Brendan Small example and I swear when I slowed that down in soundslice he was sort of cheating during the string changes (leaving out a 16th note to make the change).
Just curious on any advice for tremolo melodies that change strings, with a fast elbow technique like we’re seeing with John and @marquephoenix (and to a lesser extent, my own tremolo with an elbow mechanic).
John says he swipes it. I think it sounds great.
1 Like
Agreed, he sounds awesome. and for the record I love swiping. I’ve heard lots of people on the forum almost consider it a mistake. I’m not in that camp. If it’s good enough for Paul Gilbert, Al D and MAB, I’ll use the heck out of it…BUT…back to the John Taylor example, wouldn’t the ascending string changes be inside string changes? I thought swiping was only for outside string changes? Or maybe at that level of speed it just doesn’t matter?
Hi, I’ve been trying to slow down a little and be accurate but I couldn’t get very far. I don’t think this is a good/efficient technique. But elbow was the fastest on “Testing Your Motions”. Here is the video:
It’s a little quiet but you can still hear it. I don’t know what’s wrong but something definitely is
This looks technically fine to me. What are you concerned about?
Can you plug into something and just do the motion itself smoothly on a single note for a 10 uninterrupted seconds or so? No fretting hand involvement, no starting and stopping the motion. Just a smooth and even as you can.
Do you have a way of recording your guitar sound in a DAW with an amp sim, or a real amp with a mic? You’ll get the best sense of what your attack sounds like that way. Smooth consistent attack is what we’re looking for. Super quiet practice videos where you’re just barely hitting the string make it hard to tell if things are really sounding the way they should. Even for you sitting in the same room, you need to be able to hear and feel what’s going, as you do it, on to know if it’s right.