Kids can learn perfect pitch, but adults apparently can’t; this ability is invaluable.
Your left-hand hypothesis is interesting but I suspect adults can learn with proper instruction. It’s easy to find out: we could ask a classical piano or violin teacher, as they have a high volume of students and would know. I’ll ask some that I know.
I have a question! Is it (a) left follows right, (b) right follows left, or (c) BOTH follow the metronome? I find the first two options disturbing for some reason.
Both follow your internal clock. You synchronise your internal clock to the metronome. That’s really all there is to it.
In my case I find the left hand much easier to master, and the right hand a major hurdle. It’s the reason I’m here of course. There are so many instances in the material here that when I finally understand technically what is being done with the right hand, I go wow, there’s absolutely no way I could ever have figured it out by myself.
I was considering suggesting the brain is analogous to the Master Clock in a studio
but then I was also considering posting another gag post like “brains don’t kill people, people do”
also also I think it’s probably more common than the OP thinks to find players who are actually quite good with the left hand (i.e. can do lots of legato) but not so good with picking
Ok here’s my opinion after doing quite a lot of critiques, both here on the forum and on the new platform:
There may well be genetic differences between people, and different maximum speeds at which each person can get to (For whatever reason: Neurons firing differently or something). Then, maybe there’s also different maximum speeds at which different persons can sync the two hands.
BUT! I think in most musical applications, these speed limits are probably irrelevant, because they are far higher than what you really need.
One person may have an absolute speed cap of 220 bpm 16th notes, another may have 300. You rarely need more than 200 except in very specialised genres. And when speed>200 is required, it’s very often with very simplified / mechanically optimized patterns.
But pretty much everyone I have seen in critiques* , has the potential to play a classic pattern like — say — Gilbert overlapping 6s, at160bpm 16th notes or higher.
And for all your left hand needs… just have a look at this 
*and I would guess also most people with healthy wrists / hands
I’d like to write up a proper response, but I’m not sure it’s honestly worth the effort. I’ve written a lot here on similar subjects before. @Rufian seems to be totally convinced that he’s correct, and I don’t get the impression that he’ll be particularly receptive to what I would have to say.
However, I will say this for other readers.
Based on my experience, I have come to believe more and more that when we encounter an expert whose capability and performance seems incomprehensible to us, it is extremely rare that they are doing what we are doing and simply “doing it better.” Most often, they are doing something different to what we have been doing, which is naturally more amenable to achieving their seemingly incredible results. They may not be consciously aware of this, they may even believe that what they do is no different to what is commonly done or taught.
I actually make a similar analogy to MIDI clock in lessons regularly. You connect your picking and fretting movements to your internal clock. You learn to synchronise your internal clock to something external (metronome, drummer, etc). You build a vocabularly of rhythmic coordinations of both hands (or “rudiments”). You trust your sense of time, set yourself a higher internal rate and go. You succeed or you fail. Your failures are the feedback that helps you to learn.
That’s the process. There is a lot more to be said about the details of how it’s done, but that’s the big picture.
I haven’t been teaching all that long, but I’ve seen both situations quite frequently.
Technique is informed by constraints. Performer constraints, environmental constraints and task constraints. I would say that the task constraints for the fretting hand are generally more complex than those for the picking hand, and I don’t think that’s controversial. I also believe that performer and environmental constraints are more significantly variable for the fretting hand that for the picking hand, though that might be more debatable.
This might turn into a rant. I think it’s fair to say that the “conventional wisdom” for fretting hand technique is either overly naive (lies to children, maybe) or just plain wrong. Once we filter out rubbish like “finger independence” and the typical conception of “economy of motion,” what is actually left?
At most, you’ll be told that it’s important to relax and minimise tension, but there’s no practical method given to actually achieve that goal. Moreover, the teacher will probably demonstrate some “canonically correct” form which doesn’t even facilitate that. Then it’s “try this exercise.” Just what guitar pedagogy needs. More “exercises” which don’t transfer into actual playing.
I’m sure some of you will have seen a recent YouTube short where a teacher criticised the fretting hand technique of another YouTuber. I won’t name names, but if I said it really PISSED ME OFF (but I’m not even mad), you might get the reference. The teacher puts out some good content (and I’m definitely not in his intended audience), but this video was the usual story about economy of motion with a demonstration of a “correct” form. More of the established dogma (this time weaponised). I’m wearied by it.
This is not what great players are actually doing. It’s just not it.
General comment not directed at you. I’m just quoting you because you are correct!
If a user has already made up their mind and is not here to engage in actual discussion, or if they are not engaging in good faith and really just here to troll, nobody should be responding to the user or posting in the thread. Instead, flag the posts or thread and we’ll take a look.
In a similar fashion, please don’t post counter-troll replies that we then have to sift through to figure out which parts of a growing thread are actually genuine.
I get that it’s not always obvious — you see a topic, you’re like, hey, I have a thought about that! And you reply. Only later do you realize it was just bait. But when you do notice, just let us know and we’ll take care of it.
Thank you!
I have a question that is tangentially related to this thread regarding fretting hand speed:
When practicing pure legato, should I expect the speed to be there right off the bat (even if it sloppy with missed notes and/or lack of coordination), just like with the picking hand? For example, when I try to trill between my index and ring finger a minor third, it is pretty slow (same for all other finger combos). I’m wondering if this is an issue related to form, because I put in the hours doing exercises like this when I was a teenager and got nowhere. It isn’t a problem with my guitar setup, because I play with light strings and low action.
Or maybe it is a problem with how I practiced. How do you go about practicing legato? Start with speed and clean it up over time, or gradually build up?
Speed should be there from the beginning. It’s impossible to tell what’s wrong without seeing a video. But even if I gently put my finger tips on a drinking glass I can generate decent speed just lightly smacking my fingers against the side of the glass. I am in a good position to do this - straight wrist (in both the flex/ext and deviation axis), fingers gently extended but relaxed. Without any difficulty at all I can tap 8ths repeatedly with any fingers in the 170’s, or alternate between pairs like index/ring or index/middle at 16ths. That’s fast enough to play a lot of Eric Johnson’s fretting patterns. In short order you should be able to do similar patterns that go between index/middle/pink or index/middle/ring (or the reverse) at impressive speeds. 6’s at 110 - 150 bpm and beyond should be achievable. There will be a certain degree of coordination for this, but raw speed should be there for most people that don’t have some type of physical limitations like arthritis or previous bone break etc.
Legato, is for the most part a left hand affair, but there’s lots of spots where the pick can activate notes also! I’d say you might find a lot of handy information if you do a search on @Tom_Gilroy and efficient digital cycles. Lots of cool threads here in that that you should find helpful!
I just tried this and interestingly (perhaps unsurprisingly?) on my right hand I can trill between index/middle and index/ring at over 200bpm 16ths but my left hand is already starting to struggle at 150. I’m just placing my hands out in front of me symmetrically so there are no differences in form. Similar with just tapping 8th notes. Maybe I should relearn guitar as a lefty? 
I do wonder if this can be improved. All the anecdotes I’ve heard about trying to train raw speed (e.g. credfb91’s post above as well as some other posts on this form and elsewhere, as well as my own experience) have, unfortunately, resulted in failure, but perhaps there are other approaches that can be taken. Where does the discrepancy stem from? I assume it’s not muscle strength. I would guess that the neural pathways for the non-dominant hand have less myelination. Perhaps a nerve conduction velocity test would reveal some insights.
By the way, @Tom_Gilroy, a while back you mentioned you were reading “Motor Learning and Control for Practitioners” by Cheryl A. Coker, did you ever decide if you would recommend this book?
Totally guessing: Perhaps speed comes from starting a movement as early as possible vs. waiting for the last moment, and avoiding antagonistic muscles fighting? In other words, early and momentary muscle contraction? After all, picking is just flipping the hand back-and-forth.
I decided about 10 years ago that I was going to just play Chapman Stick (All tapping) and you know it was quite an experience. RH/LH independence, legato articulations and all that jazz and of course I tried to learn all kinds of crazy stuff, like this Bach 2 part invention - I got it as best I could and had to splice two takes together for this video and it was STILL prone to completely falling apart. Practiced it hardcore for over a year! Dang, that instrument was tough! I actually had it so memorized, that piece that I could play it on a keyboard - and I am the WORST keyboardist. Well, not so bad anymore - thanks Chapman Stick…
Anyways, I realized that my playing environment (The Stick) was SO complicated that it was actually distracting me from connecting to that inner pulse. Like, I had to concentrate on every move. Half the instrument is tuned in 5ths backwards, the other half in 4ths. What a nightmare! Anyways - learning this piece and playing this instrument dedicated to tapping helped out a lot of things, but legato/tapping speed wasn’t one of them. I realized that a keyboard literally solves all of my tapping and harmony needs, and that although my guitar only has 6 strings - all of my Stick tapping stuff works perfectly there and can be utilized alongside my other guitar skills. I learned that complexity and difficulty aren’t necessarily conducive to ummm something sounding good or interesting. Hell, I sound like I am struggling through a grade 2 piano recital. Yuck.
The brain is in control, yep I accept that. However; ease of note activation, physical ability, strength, endurance, wellness, flexibility etc are all factors. Big factors I think. Speed, especially on the LH I think is all about efficiency, instrument setup as well as strength, agility and endurance. Hard to say!
Eddie Van Halen’s Eruption tapping solo I think is a GREAT place to start to build LH dexterity and articulation - plus it’s fun and sounds great.
Anyways, here’s some Bach to ruin your morning! 
That would certainly make sense. If you’re going to hit a note on the beat, you have to begin the movement a little bit before the beat. I suppose the question that follows would be: why is my (maybe everybody’s?) dominant hand able to start the movements early enough whereas the non-dominant hand is not? And how does one go about training?
I could probably come up with plenty of ideas for training, e.g. practice making “quick pulse and release tension” motions (press your finger and then relax it as quickly as possible), individually at first, then in sets of 2, 3, etc. until you can string many together. But I have no reason to believe those would (or wouldn’t) actually be effective since the underlying cause of limitation is still a mystery.
OMG that Bach is just awesome!!! Show those keyboardists who’s boss 
I’ve had a love/disenchanted relationship with classical guitar over the years. I love the tone/timbre expressiveness of it but it’s SO hard to play it’s almost not worth it. At the end of the day, the most challenging classical guitar pieces are the equivalent of something most not even great keyboardists could sight read. That thing you’re doing just may level the playing field. Very cool!
Hell yeah man! That was freaking awesome! The Chapman stick is one of those crazy instruments I always forget is a thing and then whenever I’m reminded of its existence my mind is blown every time.
I’m going through this very experience myself The amount of agility, finesse, and precision required to make anything sound good can just be overwhelming. I’ve been working on this song for months and I feel like I’m going to have to grow 2 extra fingers to be able to ever play it well.
So, about the idea of testing legato speed… How do you account for the fingers bouncing off of the strings? Is it a myth or a factor? I’m not exactly sure. I feel like there is some bounce when doing a 2-note trill, but not so much doing longer runs. I think there is a bit of bounce by default, but I don’t know if it hurts or helps. I know that when doing the “Satch pick tap thingy” that the bounce is obvious and helpful, but that’s just on 1 note.
Hmmm for me, it’s not a matter of “bounce”. But more of a “press” for the hammer-on, the pulloff is kind of a “release” like releasing an arrow. I think certain finger combinations are much more powerful than others; LH fingers 1-2-3 or 1-2-4 seems to work best for me; (@Tom_Gilroy has an awesome EDC program that works great with legato!)
Thanks for the kind words on the Bach - I actually learned 3 inventions on the Stick with the hopes and dreams of having hand/finger independence but what I learned is that there’s more of an interdependence than anything else, so I kind of had to learn it in… get ready for this… chunks! hahaha I am a big fan of Bach. Always rewarding to listen to while I played it, even when I played it poorly.
I have some thoughts on sightreading for guitar as well, but that’s a tale for another day.
Well, I went to a jazz oriented music school and the emphasis there was on improvisation and composition, creative interpretation. Different emphasis = different output. A classical musician is all about spending time with the piece, maybe only 1 or two super serious pieces in a year - and honestly that stuff is so difficult to play sometimes that really your reading and theory skills, fretboard knowledge etc would have to be off the hook to be able to pull off one of those monsters on the first pass sight reading it. So I agree, Joe - I love/hate complex stuff for that very reason. Very worth it to learn though, even if it gets forgotten.
As far as developing speed with legato, I think you need to start with chunks that are conducive to being played fast; like the opening trill in crossroads or something. I found that “even number of notes” with a pick activation on every new string worked great as a starting point. Or even 3 pick activations on a 6 note thing, etc etc seems to propel it and help with accent. SOunds cool also; adds punctuation!
Oh yeah, the inventor - Emmett Chapman was a very interesting fella. He loved guitar and guitar technique! He was really into John Mclaughlin and he created the Stick so that he could do Mahavishnu type stuff by himself! Of course, the stick became it’s own kind of thing after a while (Nobody played like Emmett - Greg Howard and Bob Culbertson are pretty awesome too, but nowhere near as individual as Emmett)
Emmett was really big on the connection to the instrument. Neat guy.