Kemper is it really that good?

Gear
#21

Modelers units are really good nowadays. It’s really a matter of playing feel/touch, not tone. It doesn’t really change things if a unit bricks one day, amps can break too and you’ll likely need to service an amp more than you need to service a modeler. Can’t speak for Kemper, but Axe FX is great. Quad Cortex is probably going to be pretty good too.

To mirror what Adam Nolly Getgood has said, one of the last hurdles in modelling is to make IRs dynamic so that they respond to input like real speakers do, instead of being static EQ curves. I’m not an IR expert but that sounds like it’s going to be another small step towards pretty much indistinguishable.

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#22

I have a black star ht1

Veeeery complicated!

#23

I have an Axe-FX 3, and it’s good, but I’ll bet you can take it away and I’d be perfectly happy with a Kemper, Helix, GT-100, or nearly anything else… my Axe-FX usually pretends to be a Mesa-Boogie Dual Rectifier, and I don’t really change its settings. Indeed, I wonder about the obvious thing… why don’t I just get a real Dual Rectifier? :rofl:

So I came to the following conclusion: The true “magic” of a modeling amp is that you can change “amp” and effects on the fly. So, my dream—and I have not done this yet—is to have Logic X (on a Mac) change my “amp” and effects on a song-by-song or even measure-by-measure basis [as it plays drums and rhythm tracks]! But the fact that I haven’t done this for so many years and still stick to my “Dual Rectifier” suggests that I’m just not excited to sound like anything other than a “Dual Rectifier.”

So I would go to fundamentals: Do you want just one great sound, or multiple sounds? If you want multiple, it sounds like you might want a modeler and software to switch it for you, but otherwise, perhaps just a simple amp is best. Also, deep in your heart, are you a knob tweaker? I cannot stand tweaking knobs and hate irregular user interfaces (hello, Fractal), so in some sense the Axe-FX 3 is the wrong thing for me… but, if one is a tweaker, than a Kemper wouldn’t be a very good choice, as I understand that it is restricted.

Also none of this stuff is standing still… the “new hotness” is already here, I believe that it is this.

What you might consider doing is getting an Axe-FX, trying it really quickly, and then returning it within the trial window, and then perhaps doing the same with a Kemper, and so forth… Indeed, if you can get them to all arrive at your house at the same time, you can have a bake-off, and return all but the winner!

#24

I like the Kemper alot and have sold my two tube amps since. Nowadays it seems to be all about preference between the modellers, the are that good. Not to have a go at Gabriel here, but I always have to chuckle if someone really thrashes an item that many, many pros around the world now use for years. I mean, you don‘t have to like the Kemper, but to kinda objectively dismiss an important aspect like playing feel is a bit ridiculous in my opinion given who uses it professionally on stage.

That being said: I recently played the Kemper through a little pedal poweramp into a 1x12. Defeats its purpose as a modeller, but it is sooo much more fun to play because of… well… playing feel through a real guitar cabinet. I even think about buying some random 20w tube combo just for the kicks at home now.

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#25

That’s just it, you said it. No doubt about the utility of modellers, but there is no denying the fun factor is still the amp and cab, and a plexi into a 4x12 is where it’s at. There is no comparison, now if you’re a “PRO” or in a studio situation, given a choice I doubt anybody would use a modeller, but pro’s these days succumb to the gig/situation, it ain’t the 80s anymore, and the music is so different these days, one may need a swiss knife to support whatever plastic situation your covering.

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#26

Can you elaborate on this? I think I know what you’re getting at.

I am a Kemper owner for years. I got one after being unimpressed with the Axe II. With the Axe, I would twist knobs for hours and hours trying to get a decent sound, only to put it thru an FRFR at a gig and have to tweak it between every song. I never played it through a PA though. With the Kemper, it was just plug and play.

I am getting tired of it though. Not sure if I’m going to keep it or sell it but I am looking to get back to tube amps. I’m trying the new Kemper Kab to see if it livens it up for me. I will say this, that thing sounds amazing in a mix thru the PA. You cannot tell. No one can. That it’s not a tube amp. In practice or a jam situation, that’s different.

I saw Devin Townsend live a few years ago. Heaviest shit I’ve ever seen live, tied or maybe just in 2nd place to Meshuggah, and the band was running Kempers. I think as a live solution, modelers are invaluable. If I sell all my digital stuff and get an ENGL or a Diezel, am I taking that on the road? So I’m not sure if I’d sell my Kemper just for that reason alone. Or sell it and get a Quad Cortex.

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#27

I think a lot of the high end modellers are overkill if you’re just playing for yourself in your free time.

Before you commit to the Kemper or the AXE FX, consider S-Gear. It’s much less expensive and it sounds great. With an audio interface and a nice set of headphones you’re all set.

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#28

This, IMO, is the absolute core of the question. There are other ways around the volume of a tube amp - a reactive load box that can load IRs for example - but if you’re the sort of player who wants a whole fleet of amp sounds, modelers start to make a lot of sense and are good enough these days that they CAN be used in a studio setting or live and get great results. If you’re the sort of player who only uses a handful of sounds, though, if they can all come out of a single amp, maybe going straight to that amp makes more sense.

FWIW - the Neural Quad Cortex is heavy on hype, but nothing I’ve heard actually coming out of it is really that groundbreaking. Ola Englund’s review of a demo unit is probably worth a look here, where he liked it, but didn’t really come away raving like it was doing anything any of the other major players (Axe, Kemper) in the space couldn’t. I’ve had some interactions over the years with a guy who at least used to, probably still is, part of the Neural team (they don’t really list staff on their website and Im too disinterested to dig in further) and who I wouldn’t trust further than I could throw (strong words from a cyclist, all lower body, lol) and their plugins have generally been good, but not head and shoulders above anything else on the market. Also, I’m NOT a computer geek by any means, but a guitarist buddy who is tells me that their marketing literature is based heavily on a misunderstanding of the difference between physical cores and logical ones, and their whole “competitive advantage” is sort of BS for it.

Word I’ve gotten, in the metal community at least (of which for various reasons I’m nominally a member, even if I don’t really play metal), is that the main appeal of the Quad Core these days (especially after a year plus of delays coming to market) is for players in Europe, where the Fractal FM3 is heavily backordered and both the Fractal and Kemper units get hit hard by VAT, so it’s either continue to wait for a FM3 at a heavy markup to list, order a Kemper now at a heavy markup to list, or wait it out for a Quad Core with no VAT and no money down to stay on the waiting list. Here in the States, Kemper and Fractal floorboard options are readily available for about the same price, and aside from marketing jargon like “the purest distillation of tone” and I wish I was making that up but it’s been a running joke over at another forum I run, there’s really no indication it’s any better, so the market has pretty much moved on to what you can get now.

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#29

I can’t personally speak for Kemper but have heard them in live settings and it sounded fine.

I’ll offer my opinion that tube amps sound better, as the particular band I saw had one guitarist using the Kemper and the other a backline Marshall. I just preferred the Marshall. But I also know Metallica uses AxFX live, and their last tour sounded phenomenal to me. It took Metallica’s live show to convince me that indeed, you don’t ‘need’ a tube amp to get this job done.

Bottom line, whatever amp you use that makes sounds inspiring enough to make you want to play, use it.

I think Kempers and AxeFX and the like are great for touring musicians who have real problems: shipping gear, consistent sound, a wide range of tones (for some).

For bedroom players, having that much to play with can be a dream come true, or a nightmare of dialing in tones. Like we didn’t have enough work just learning how to play the damn thing and keep it in tune!

I have a Yamaha THR10X and it’s a lot of fun that fulfills a purpose: practice amp with great tones. They’re not the BEST tones, though, and I constantly think about picking up some small tube amp for home use. Then you go down the rabbit hole of trying to get digital functionality out of a tube amp setup, and the costs. So I stick with the THR.

It’s such a vast divide between the two camps. Personally, I just can’t get inspired for live playing with a modeler. I just don’t. For me, part of the whole experience are the ‘tools’ of the trade. Like a chef, who prefers certain knives, pots or pans over another.

Or like listening to vinyl: it may not be efficient, but damnit if I don’t get the BEST music experience out of the ‘ritual’ of everything to do with vinyl. Part of my disinterest in music was the whole ITunes era of digital downloads. I felt it made the music even more disposable that before. I just couldn’t get passionate about clicking a mouse. Maybe it’s because I also didn’t have a great setup to play the music, but for me, working a little harder…having LESS choice…doing things within a certain spectrum, and sticking to that…there’s something rewarding in that, something I can’t explain. I don’t need to, either. It works for me and that’s that.

I’m sure you’ll love a Kemper. Only way to find out is to try, and lots of places have great return policies. Give it a shot.

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#30

I’ll try :slight_smile:

It’s about getting the kemper’s response dynamics true to the real amp being emulated.

Within the Kemper’s “amp” section’s deep edit page lurks a compression and pick attack setting. These would drive me insane. They determine the dynamic response of the profile. And you really need direct experience with the real amp to get those right. This, in all fairness, is not the kempers fault. These settings were exposed at a later firmware for better flexibility; I suspect it’s something the profiler sets up in its profiling operation, these may be overrides. I don’t know where the real amp is at, and so it’s not possible to get the kemper settings close or right. I don’t think the kemper gets this right on profiling either.

In hindsight, since I’ve had a good year and a half living with a 1959 Super Leed 69’ and the 4x12, I will have better luck setting the kemper up better if I were to profile my amp.

I was always worried about finding the sweet spot but did not want any artificial aids either. It never felt right. At the time, I had a Dr Z Carmen Ghia and whatever I tried, I could never get it to feel as good as the real Ghia.

There is an issue with pick attack transients. This matters greatly to me.

I think that depends on the kind of musician you are. If you’re a hired gun or studio pro, the kemper and other modellers can go a long way for extreme variety and effects, who knows what artist you’ll be supporting, or music genre etc. But if I were dedicated to the “Band” band, I’d never want more than a few core tones, and I’d like to enjoy myself as best possible. The only other factor is moving heavy loads, but I think that can be handled by backline riders in almost every case. This is my opinion :beers:

It’s not going to give you the feel of a real guitar speaker/cab. The core tech can’t reproduce the real amp yet. You can’t switch off the IR speaker sim section, but as it’s an FRFR speaker in the “Kab”, I suspect it won’t work.

I think you’ll have better results getting the real cab you want; later, if you ditch the kemper, you still got a good cab that’s been used; breaking speakers in is a thing too. New speakers sound suboptimal.

I really like the G12-T75. People dis it un-necessarily. I don’ like the sensitive mids of more traditional guitar cab speakers. The 75s have good headroom and a tight low end. In a 4x12 as the stock Marshall 1960B cab, it’s brilliant.

But as with all these things, if you don’t have experience with the real thing, you don’t know what you’re missing, and in a way, that’s a good thing. I thought the kemper was the greatest invention till I had it for a long time and began to suspect my self for drinking the kool-aid. It turns out it’s nowhere near a real amp. That little difference is jarring to me. People who say there’s no difference, have never lived with the real amp they’re using a profile of, the pro’s know what’s up and it’s a question of practicality, business and the situation, they are there to make a living and will do whatever it takes, they are well aware of any compromise, silent stages are gigs I’d never go to, soulless fakery like all this woke culture, people tend to mix that up. Strong opinions I know, just being honest :beers:

As a bedroom player and serious hobbyist, I want the real thing at the same price of these crazy expensive overpriced kiosk computers with locked firmware. I don’t need a zillion sounds, and to be honest, a good plexi can be quite the chameleon with different speakers and preamp pedals.

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#31

All pretty good points. I agree that the amp profiles are generally too compressed. It becomes very apparent when recording heavy guitars. I agree with you on the core sounds too. I am a very versatile musician. But I think I could coax all the sounds I need out of a great tube amp. My whole reason for buying the digital stuff in the first place was to have a great sound at any volume. I remember being so disenchanted as a young musician when I would play a dual rectifier or something expecting to hear the sound I heard on records. Only to find it sounded like ass until you turned it up to 400. That was just never practical to me. But things have come so far since then. Now you can record or rehearse or play live with any tube amp at zero stage volume.

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#32

I got the kemper for precisely the same reasons. I got the Ghia way before the kemper, though it would be the fire breaking dragon from the 80s, I had no clue. To be honest, I’d be better able to dial it in today, but back then I didn’t know what I was doing. A simple fact like high gain needs a high pass was unknown to me, the Ghia had an awesome tone knob that worked the other way around, but it still had a tube rectifier, so close but not there yet, had a lot of tones though, as you said, one can muster a lot of tones out of a single-ended tube amp too, these things are deceptively versatile.

You know what’s better than any attenuator, regardless of reactive load, ramping and all that BS… a good Post Phase Inverter Master Volume! I was stunned at how good it is at whisper volumes. Nothing beats a mic’d cab, the IRs may sound good, and they do, but they don’t feel right.

To think I almost bought the wazza tube amp expander instead of my cab on the advice of a lot of “pros”, phew, dodged a bullet there.

I do believe there are a few stages/classes of these PPIMV things, I guess I got the good one in my RR100.

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#33

I don’t know much about electronics. What would I have to look for to make sure an amp has a post phase inverter master volume?

#34

I’ve heard people talk about the PPIMV in a negative light as well. So I looked it up on the metropulos (spelling?) amp forums, it was over my head but I gathered there are more than one type of implementation, and so I suspect the naysayers experienced the lesser kind.

The best way to go about it is find a good amp builder, I’d recommend Kevin from Rockitt Rettro, his RR100 is serious bang for the buck, no affiliation but man what an amp, it now bugs me slightly that I have the last amp I’ll ever buy. Super nice guy, I bought a mint one second hand, even then Kevin was super nice in walking me through the amp and to get the best of it. If you’re in Asia, Nick from Ceriatone is another genius and super nice guy to deal with.

I’ll say it again, if you want a plexi, Marshall doesn’t build it anymore, the HW SuperLeed is compromised and overpriced. RR and Ceriatone make em the old way, point to point with the best stuff and impeccable build quality, it’s absolute art work in there. I’m sure there are more builders but these are the ones I know are priced right and have direct experience with.

I have a soft spot for the DR.Z EMS, I wish I got that one to start with, but it wasn’t in his stable at the time. Dr.Z amps will survive any mass extinction event.

#35

That’s funny I’m actually watching a guy demoing a ceriatone on YouTube right now. So these sound good at any volume?

#36

HAHA… shoot them a mail, Nic will respond, I think they use the same one the metro amps use last I checked. But if you can get a second hand Dr,Z EMS.

But yeah I’m not sure it has an MV :cry:

#37

You really have to know electronics and look at the amp schematic to understand this stuff. Whether it matters will depend on where the distortion is generated in the circuit and what sound you want to get. If you’re not an electronics guy, probably your best bet is to play all the candidates at the volume you want to use and see what you like best. Failing that, take the advice of someone you trust.

If you’re interested in the electronics, here’s a shortish and yet still oversimplified summary:

Guitar pickups generate tiny signals, both in voltage and current. Tube amps generally have preamps designed as voltage amplifiers to boost the voltage a lot and the boost current a little (and do tone shaping). This signal feeds the power amp, which is designed as a current amplifier to boost the voltage a little and boost the current a lot (so it can physically move the speakers magnets).

Most modern power amps are push-pull configuration, which means that one set of tubes handles the positive voltage swings, and another set of tubes handles the negative voltages swings. This means that each set of tubes can idle at ground voltage, and use power in little sips so they don’t consume a lot of current and thus age more slowly. In order to separate the positive swings from the negative swings, we need an extra tube stage between the preamp and the power amp. This is called the phase inverter, and it feeds the positive swings to one set of output tubes, and inverts the negative swings before sending them to the second set of output tubes. The two sets of power tubes feed opposite ends of the output transformer, so the inverted negative signal gets inverted again and the negative swings are restored.

Distortion can be generated in the preamp tubes, in the power amp tubes, and in the phase inverter tube (as well as in other places like the output transformer, even in the caps and resistors). Every amp design will have different proportions of distortion from these stages, and it will vary by volume. Generally, the harder you push any particular stage the more it will distort.

A master volume turns down the input to the power amp, which will reduce the distortion from the power tubes. If the master volume comes before the phase inverter, then the distortion from the phase inverter will be reduced when you turn down the MV. If the distortion from the phase-inverter is part of the sound you want, you will usually want the master volume to come after this stage. Whether that’s true depends on the design of the amp and your personal tastes.

Some smaller amplifiers (generally 10 Watts or less), like the Fender Champ and many of it’s descendants (Vox AC4TV, Epiphone Valve Jr., Garnet Herzog, Kustom Defender, etc.) are single-ended, that means that a single set of power tubes handles the positive and negative swings together. To make this happen, the tubes have to be fully powered at all times so that the idle voltage is about halfway between ground and the supply voltage. So they burn up power tubes more quickly, but they don’t require phase inverter stages, so there’s only one place to put the master volume.

Since power amp distortion is part of the signature sound of some amplifiers (older Marshalls, etc.) some people dislike this approach, and prefer to use load boxes or reamping to push the power tubes hard but still get lower volume. Many Fender amps, especially the Twin Reverb, generate very little distortion in the preamp and phase inverter stage, and have to be cranked to ungodly volume levels to generate power amp distortion. (Personally, I love this sound, but it tends to kill small animals nearby.)

To decouple the volume from the amount of distortion, many modern amplifiers (especially solid state amps) generate the majority of the distortion on the preamp. Preamp distortion is generally though of as harsher and fizzier than power amp distortion, but amp makers work very hard at tone shaping, so this depends a lot on the amp and on your preferences.

Power scaling is a newer approach that allows you to reduce the headroom in the power amp so that it distorts at lower volumes. This allows you to get power tube distortion at low volumes without reamping. I think it sounds very good, personally, but it doesn’t come standard on many amps. It’s usually either expensive to buy stock, or requires you to mod to an existing amp. It also doesn’t capture the distortion you get from pushing speakers really hard, which some people care about a lot.

Having read all that, if you want to know whether the MV in a particular amp is a PPIMV, you would look at a schematic, identify the different stages and see whether the MV is between the preamp and phase inverter, or between the phase inverter and the power tubes. Again, how much this matters depends an awful lot on both the amplifier in question and on your personal tastes, so using your ear can save you a lot of time and trouble here.

Sorry for the dissertation. Hope it helps somebody.

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#38

I remember Kevin from Rockitt Retro telling me the MV on my amp will have no effect when it’s turned all the way up. Reading the below page tells me it’s a Type 2 variant.

After digging around, I found the source.

https://robrobinette.com/The_Trainwreck_Pages.htm
From the page linked above:

[Rob adds: The Master Volume Type-2 Is the most “transparent” and my recommended MV because at max volume the amp circuit is unchanged. The Type-2 simply replaces the power tubes’ grid leak resistors (upper set of resistors) with a dual 100KL pot (100 kilohm linear pot, dual gang–1 shaft turns both pots together). The grid leak resistance does not change when the master volume is adjusted so there is no change in bias voltage on the power tube grids. Note in the diagram above the grid leak resistors have been removed (see the Type-1 diagram for comparison). The pots function as variable power tube grid leak resistors. The pots’ left terminals are tied together and connected to the old junction of the original grid leak resistors. That junction is either tied to ground for cathode biased amps or to the bias power supply for fixed bias amps. If you are building a new amp I recommend installing this MV during the build. I recommend a 100KL dual gang pot when the original grid leak resistors are 100K. For amps with 220k grid leaks like most Fenders I recommend a dual gang 220KA pot like this . Another option is placing two 1.8M resistors in parallel with the 250KA dual gang pots. Solder the resistors across both pots–center terminal to input terminal (as shown below). This will improve the pot’s taper and drop the pot’s max resistance from 250k to 220k. The " Lar Mar " MV is simply a Type-2 MV using 2.2M resistors added to a 250KA dual gang pot. The 1.8M resistors reduce a 250K pot’s total resistance to 220k and act as a safety path for the bias voltage in case the pot wiper fails .

Edit: BTW I checked on the Dr.Z EMS, it too has some wizardry to be usable at any volume!

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#39

I managed to dial a sound I quite like into bias FX 2 so figured I will wait a while before a Kemper or something like that.

I did check out the neural DSP stuff which sounded pretty good but seems to be aimed at chuggy metal and that isn’t the tone I’m after. They also have a funny sales structure whereby you buy one app and it will maybe only have 1 all and no effects so you have to buy multiple apps and then use a DAW to mix them together which for me is too expensive and too much of a faff.

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#40

I have had one for years and absolutely love it!
The profiles already loaded in it are incredible.
I have also purchased profile packs from Michael Britt and they are out of this world!
I have not profiled any amps of my own and, to be honest, don’t have much interest in doing so - especially when there are so many accessible top class tones in there.
I have never had one bit of bother with it.
My advice would be “DO IT!!”

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