Learning how to pick like Anton Oparin using CtC

Playing Technique
#61

I don’t think he uses his elbow on nuclear bleed. I think at his highest speeds, due to inertia and him being very balanced/controlled in whatever tension is necessary, it will look like his elbow moves. It’s not the same as Rusty Cooley style elbow. Basically his wrist is driving but the elbow comes along for the ride, as opposed to the “stiff arm” classic elbow motion.

Here’s a still image from nuclear bleed. His frame rate is low so we see blurring, but notice how only his hand is blurred. If this were true elbow motion, we’d see that same blur on the whole forearm I think.

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#62

Correct, I guess should have clarified that I think it’s a ‘combined movement’ rather than a ‘stiff arm’ approach.

My main point was that I am yet to see really fast motions that are exclusively ‘wrist’ therefore making the ‘wrist dance’ an oversimplification of what’s really going on.

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#63

Could someone please explain to me what the fuck the “wrist dance” even is? Is it a slight rotational motion of the forearm as a side effect of using wrist deviation or RDT to pick?

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#64

Does the wrist dance function something like the swivel technique for bass drumming?

In that case once the main motion has increased in frequency to the point that there’s no longer enough range available you introduce a perpendicular motion to regain some range.

It probably also reduces fatigue by varying the movement.

(This post may well contain misunderstandings of both guitar AND drum technique)

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#65

@Tom_Gilroy gave the best explanation of it above. The “wrist dance” is an incidental movement of the forearm that occurs during wrist motion at slow speeds. “At slow speeds” is an important caveat here because Anton’s wrist dance (and those of other RDT players) disappears when playing fast. In other words, it’s not essential for fast playing and not worth worrying about.

I also agree with @Pepepicks66 that Anton’s wrist movement is RDT and not pure deviation.

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#66

I am deviating from the “wrist dance” with this post, but there´s one statement by Anton that really baffles me. (I already posted a link to the following videos above, but I´d really like to know if I am not getting this right.)

At 05:15 Anton says “It is the string that must avoid the pick, and not opposite.”
At 06:45, he says “The string avoids the pick, but the pick is always at the same depth.”

The quesion I have: is that even possible?

In this video here, you can clearly see how the pick moves the string to the side before then passing OVER the string. The string does not move “down”, or in Anton´s words: the string does not “avoid the pick”.

What you can also see is that the pick depth before and after going over each string is actually the same - so the fact that the “string is moving the pick” and “the pick stays at the same height” are not contradictory statements.

Finally, to add to my confusion, his student Dima here demonstrates how it´s done. I don´t see any wiggle room for the tip of the pick to move to the side before passing the string. Is that because the movement of the pick is too fast, or is it actually possible for the pick to stay unimpeded and move the pick “down and under, out of the way”?

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#67

That video is interesting but also not how everyone picks. For example, there is a lot of pick exposure and also it is a pick that has some flexibility in it. Those 2 things will make it more challenging for the pick to move through the string (i.e. pick displaces string rather than vice versa). A stable grip with a pick that has decent stiffness and not tons of pick exposure should make what he says in the other video easily possible.

It’s no secret Anton likes a firm pick hold.

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#68

My understanding is that Anton is saying, “pretend the hand is on rails and it smashes the string out of the way.” This means that he has a firm grip on the pick and that his fingers won’t collapse or change shape over the impact, etc.

So it’s easy to do what Anton says at 0.3mm deep, but another thing entirely at 4mm.

I suspect he is OK if the pick bends in the collision, but he likely will not permit the hand to leave its pre-planned path.

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#69

I agree that there´s variation in pick exposure and flexibility. I do believe that the basic interaction between the string and the pick is the same as in the video with the close-up of the double-pick, though (except for the actual “bending” of the pick).

Pick hits the string → string is displaced to the side → pick ultimately gives in to the resistance and the tip of the pick moves to the opposite side of where it is pushing and moves “over” the sting. It may very well land at the same depth as before hitting the string.

Maybe it will not “bend” as in the video with the double pick I posted above, but it will definitely have to move to the side to a certain degree. If it is totally rigid, it does not pass the string, especially if you play with a zero degree pick slant and the force is applied at a 90 degree angle to the string. You´d have to either loosen the pick grip a little or move the pick “up”, away from the guitar body (smiley face).

I wouldn´t have any issue with this if he himself said “It is just an image, an analogy. It´s not what is actually happening. Ultimately, the pick moves over the string, the string does not move out of the way of the pick.” But he doesn´t say that.

The idea of picking “through” the string is actually very helpful and it made me solve one of my picking issues, so I even benefited from it.I can pick in the way that his student demonstrates. But I can only do it if there is SOME wiggle room for the pick to move to the side, even if I use a thick pick (2mm) and it is not even visible that the tip of the pick is moving. That´s where I disagree with Anton.

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#70

If the pick went through the string the steel would be cut. Physics is such that they collide and push each other out of the way. Anton seems to say that the hand must dominate and should barely be deflected by the string. This means the string slides over the irresistible pick. What am I missing?

#71

Nothing. That’s all he’s saying :slight_smile:

The slant doesn’t really matter (in CtC terms). The amount of edge picking does though, and I think that’s what you’re getting at. And if so, you’re absolutely right. If we have the pick pressing completely flat against the string there would be no way to pass it. It would stretch until it broke. And since it that requires more distance than the string(s) after it, we’d be starting to move those strings out of the way too before any strings broke :slight_smile:

But this again is where “how people actually play”, as opposed to that video you posted, are important. It’s extremely hard to play with zero degrees of edge picking. Both mechanically and even positionally. Unless I use a near flat approach angle, I can’t even get close to zero degrees of edge picking. And this is how most people play. Even if they think they are playing with the pick “flat” there’s a little bit of edge offset. So the pick has a natural slope the string will ride over and release. Other factors (depth) will have implications, but this allows the pick to stay relatively at the same depth and as @kgk said that will be the “dominate” portion - the pick moves the string out of the way.

Anton’s just trying to get people out of a very weak grip where the pick flops around excessively. I can’t say it produces a “bad” sound because that’s subjective. But certainly it’s going to cause issues with sync, and in more aggressive picking styles, the tone won’t sound appropriate.

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#72

Even if the pick is flat, physics demands that the string will slide. A problem only arises if the pick comes in like a hook*—and therefore stops—by analogy to how cables stop planes on aircraft carriers.

  • I hate the name “garage spikes.”
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#73

:sob:
Why? lol! It’s a great representation of how things feel (on just one direction) when something’s off in either the grip or pick point or motion.

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#74

It isn’t even analogy. There is a pick and a string, and spikes and a tire.

Is the pick the spike and the string the tire? No, that breaks down, because the tire passes the stationary spike and gets destroyed.

It literally makes no sense.

Simply put, some people try to hook the string, and either the pick will flex, dislodge, break the string, or be stopped, all unattractive options.

#75

I never took it anywhere nearly that literally lol! I took it like “you can only go in one direction, easily”. I’m sure that’s what Troy was going for.

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#76

Your interpretation doesn’t make sense, either, because I can easily drive over them in both directions. It’s just one direction will destroy my tires. And we have no idea what the tire represents.

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#77

You’re correct about the physics, if you want to be pedantic about it. But not every analogy works for everyone. The “garage spikes” analogy and terminology seems to be easy enough for most folks to understand.

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#78

That´s exactly how I visualized it. And in the video of Anton´s student, the pick is not parallel/ flat to the string either, so your remarks make sense to me.

Why would the string move “down and under” the pick, then? Does there have to be a vertical component to the stroke itself? Or does the string slide because the surface of the pick is smooth?

Maybe I´m just fooling myself when I play with the pick totally flat against the string and I turn it into a hook without realizing.

#79

Try this very slowly with your pick at 2mm depth, 3mm depth, etc., and you will see it slipping off, due to the edges of the pick coming closer and offering a lower energy choice for the string to take. What kind of pick and depth do you use, and might you be hooking the pick somehow?

You’ll see it slipping off with one edge of contact as well as two.

UPDATE: I did some experiments, and I must confess, for my usual small depths the flat face slips right off, but going up a few more mm and it really doesn’t want to move for even a significant displacement of the string! (Eventually, it would slip off, of course.) However, as @joebegly points out, going to one edge makes a huge difference. But the main idea is that you can try this is slow motion and see what happens, it’s quite informative.

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#80

I made a quick video. Sorry for the watermark.

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