Learning how to pick like Anton Oparin using CtC

I wrote up my thoughts on Anton Oparin’s technique and the Universal Guitar Technique video in “that” thread, but it seems that it has been deleted. I didn’t save a copy of what I wrote, some of what I write here might be similar.

Let me make it totally clear that I think Anton is an extraordinary player. I’ve been very impressed by his playing since videos of his playing first began to appear online when I was a teenager.

I haven’t seen Anton’s instructional materials. I’m sure that he knows what he’s doing and that those who are interested in pursuing the technique would find his instruction insightful. I think it’s possible for others to discover and develop similar approaches for themselves, but I’d expect that Anton’s instruction would accelerate the learning process significantly.

I was very focused on strict alternate picking was a teenager. I was able to develop RDT based mixed and double escape mechanics by thinking about picking geometrically. My form was very capable, I was able to play pieces by Paul Gilbert and Steve Morse cleanly and up to tempo (much of the same material that Anton started on).

I may have been swiping in some situations (I really have no way of knowing), but I’m confident that I wasn’t swiping in other situations. I remember very clearly that I was upset that I couldn’t get the Gilbert lick to “snarl” the way it does when Paul plays it. It turns out that the snarl was swiping noise, and I was upset because I wasn’t swiping (at least not audibly). I was upset because I wasn’t swiping, but I didn’t know what swiping was. At least, I didn’t know it could be done well without the performer realising.

Anton is significantly better at alternate picking than I ever was, but there are some clear similarities between our forms. My form has the same wobble that Anton calls the “wrist dance.” It has the same percussive attack and dynamic quality, and it demands that I pick directly through the string and not allow the string to deflect my picking path. I had a notebook full of diagrams and geometric derivations, including the figures of 8 that have been mentioned above (also escape angle vs. pick depth, effective radius of double-escape movements, the effects of lever length, etc).

I was never at the level of alternate picking that Anton has achieved. However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that I could have achieved some of the things he is uniquely capable of, if I had shared his goals and his committment to the technique.

Personally, I was never satisfied with the technique. It is not totally compatible with my personal goals and my preferences. My goal has always been to develop my own vocabulary which manifests the players who have inspired me as clearly recognisable influences.

I like the characteristic tone and attack in some contexts, such as Paul Gilbert and Steve Morse influences lines/patterns, but I don’t enjoy it in other situations. I don’t think the tone or attack really works for Eric Johnson or Shawn Lane influenced picking licks. I don’t feel it blends well for Allan Holdsworth or Brett Garsed inspired legato lines. I feel like the dynamic is much too hard for crosspicking rhythm patterns.

Also, I think it’s important to understand that playing the guitar is a kinaesthetic experience. We play what we think sounds best of what feels available to us. Every technique informs a mechanical intuition, and becoming familiar with that intuition is a major aspect of manifesting an inspiration as an influence.

In my experience, the mixed-escape strict alternate picking style I developed didn’t provide the mechanical intuition to guide me toward my goals.

As minor nitpicks, I don’t feel that the form allows for totally seamless integration of hybrid picking, and I don’t feel that it allows for picking with the vibrato bar held loosley in hand.

Anton’s technique is clearly exceptional. I believe his criticisms of other techniques are valid, and that his technique is likely optimal when judged on the criteria he used in his Universal Technique video.

However, I believe those criteria are subjectively chosen and are based upon his personal goals and preferences. Other players may value other criteria based upon their personal goals and preferences. I don’t believe in Universal Technique, I believe there is enough variation in goals and preferences among guitar players that many would be better served with other approaches.

None of this is to diminish Anton or his technique at all. I just want to share my own personal experience with a similar mixed-escape, strict alternate picking approach. I want to encourage others to think on what their goals and preferences are, and how the techniques they pursue serve those ends.

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Well, I think the difference here is that at Anton’s school, you must do everything in a very particular way - CtC plays to ones already existing strengths.

Imagine, however, that the method here was that you HAD to learn Troy’s wrist-forearm technique - playing in that style is “the best”. Some people are just going to have an extremely difficult time getting it down, it could end up being a very long pursuit and likely not worth the commitment. I think that’s more of an equivalent situation.

What do you believe to be the cause of this?

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My understanding of the anatomy/physiology is that the muscles of the wrist cross the the forearm, so they have secondary function in forearm rotation and will produce incidental rotation unless the primary rotators are held in constant tension.

My belief is that in this form of RDT-based mixed escape alternate picking, the incidental rotation is particularly noticeable in the central (no escape, so NSX maybe?) orientation, and that the function of the primary rotators is to move between the no escape, upstroke escape and downstroke escape orientations. So, the primary rotators can’t be used to suppress the incidental rotation.

I never thought about any of this while learning the movement as a teenager. I just focused on making the pick follow my intended trajectories (that I worked out geometrically) by feel, and making the movement feel powerful, smooth and rhythmic.

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Question that’s been eating at me for a few months: does this have the obvious implications for RDT movement phase analogous to DT and elbow (regardless of string change methods)?

I believe so. Movement phase is fundamental in coordination of rhythmic movement, in any context. The 0 degree and 180 degree phase relationships are the only naturally stable relationships and they are strong attractors.

It’s extremely difficult to synchronise rhythmic movements unless they have a stable phase relationship and simple frequency ratio. We can train other phase relationships and frequency ratios, but it always going to be significantly more difficult, less stable and context specific.

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Sorry for the confusion, I posed the question very poorly. I was wondering whether RDT and forearm motion go together in that way similar to how you’ve mentioned elsewhere on the forum that DT + elbow do.

Yes, it’s very natural and very evident in drummers who use the traditional grip.

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Aha, this explains some things. Thanks!

Thank you for the response Riffdiculous. That has really helped to put things in context a little.

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I wonder if wrist dance is really about tension.

In the air, I can move my wrist either way (with wrist dance and without) and neither feels more tensed than the other. It’s just a different motion.

Although after practicing playing on guitar with pick using only the wrist dance motion for past few months, I seem to be no longer able to play without it. Dunno how to disable it. It became a strong habit.
wristdance

BTW. why doesn’t the forum allow uploading mp4 files? I can’t upload a high-quality 1MB mp4 video, but I can convert it to a low-quality 2MB gif and upload that ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I think it’s inevitably about tension. The body is a tensegrity structure.

Muscles pull from their origin to their insertion in the direction of the muscle fibres. A contracting muscle acts on all joints it crosses. But, basic physics tells us that if there’s a pull from origin to insertion, there’s an equal and opposite pull from insertion to origin.

The carpi muscles cross the forearm and connect to the upper arm. The muscles don’t “move the wrist,” they contract and pull their points of origin and insertion together.

If the wrist joint moves and there is no motion of the forearm/elbow, there must be some force which holds the forearm and upper arm in place. The only force that can be is muscle tension. At least so far as I inderstand, there’s no other possibility.

In the air without resistance, the muscles don’t need to pull powerfully to create movement at the wrist, so very little holding force is necessary. High frequency movement against resistance requires more powerful activation, so the holding forces would be higher.

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Considering all this, if the “optimal” RDT wrist movement is generally diagonal (rather than straight side-to-side deviation), and the muscles have a supporting rotational function, wouldn’t the wrist dance also need to be diagonal?

Has anyone a clip of what is meant with “wrist dance”? Because I have no clue what it’s supposed to be.

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There’s a whole thread about it here from a few years ago.

Also, I’ll add that if you keep a keen eye on the form of very “wristy” players, you will see it occasionally (hint: Andy James).

Basically, this:

He is a clear RDT player but he has (at times) a display of this “dance”.

Actually picked up the guitar for the first time in uhh months to try this out; cool exercise! Reminds me of some bass drills I’ve seen for applying 3 finger picking technique to 2 note per string patterns (I think the old John Myung video had tons of that from what I recall, but that was almost 20 years ago lol).

I really enjoy these threads about Anton because people like @Andjoy will highlight cool exercises he does, which have been rewarding to play. I’m not sure if he sells just a PDF of those, but I would be willing to buy it.

This “wrist dance” conversation seems to be a red herring. I’ve said it before, but I don’t believe anyone’s technique is 100% isolated to a single joint or plane of motion; if anything, I now believe everyone has some degree of finger, wrist, forearm, elbow, and even shoulder motion. The “wrist dance” probably refers to synching these motions most effectively for the player.

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Interesting, you’ve got one of the best wrist dance’s I’ve ever seen :slight_smile: I was even thinking of DM’ing you and asking you how you even came up with your wrist motion.

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As far as I am aware, it’s mostly meant as a stand-alone exercise to improve relaxation/tension awareness; however, most often it’s presented as straight side-to-side deviation, which I’m curious about.

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Thanks! Lol I would be totally down to chat about it, or just go back and forth in threads. I think I’ve posted a good bit about what I think is going on with my technique, but I’m always learning new stuff about it.

From what I’ve read in the thread so far, I haven’t seen anything posted as an exercise to develop / practice the “wrist dance”. Did I overlook something?

Just from my own playing experience (and from what I’ve seen of Anton, and that clip of him talking about Paul Gilbert), there’s no way that his playing is pure wrist deviation. Definitely forearm rotation at points, and likely flexion / extension of the wrist as well.

The whole ‘wrist dance’ thing completely falls apart under close scrutiny imo. In Antons own videos (specifically the single string video when he starts doing the fast trem and the nuclear bleed video)

His forearm/elbow gets involved like 99.9% of all players that go above 200+ bpm. I mean, does anyone have videos of players doing anything resembling the mythical ‘wrist dance’ at high tempos?

Further to that, are there any videos showcasing it who are not built like Anton and PG (i.e lanky with long arms/forearms)

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