[long post warning]Need help adding helper motion to my DSX and also fixing my USX and DBX

[Philausopher]

After watching most of the videos - you sound great! Very speedy and articulate picking for the most part and definitely in agreement with Troy where you would probably never hear the very minor and infrequent flubs when plugged in. I’m so thankful for Troy and everyone else at Cracking the Code for opening my eyes to all the possibilities out there for technique development but you seem like you’re going through some paralysis by analysis like I was when I first dove into the CtC stuff … forgive me going off on a tangent here but I felt like I was in a rut for honestly a couple years trying to optimize my technique. I was gobsmacked by the whole DWPS/USX thing as I’ve since learned I’ve always been a big DWPS/DSX guy and I was obsessing over flipping things around and being able to play those Yngwie and EJ licks.

Outside of those big lightbulb moments like the micromanagement of upstrokes and downstrokes or avoiding really inefficient picking motion like stringhopping, I really don’t think any sudden change to technique will yield immediate appreciable efficiency to your playing. Maybe others will disagree here but I think taking a step back away from the nitty gritty mechanics of your picking like minute difference in wrist orientation etc. and letting feeling guide you can help you regain a sense of what really is working for you and what isn’t. Then once the discovery is made you can reasses and examine what’s really happening mechanically that allows you to be more successful.

I have a degree in Kinesiology and part of what really appealed to me about CtC is the details about joint mechanics as it’s something I’m very familiar with … but there can be a bit of a stretch between intent and the actual mechanical execution. Thinking too much about the nuts and bolts and what is happening from a mechanical standpoint can take away from your sense of tactile feedback when playing and experimenting with different motions.

Sorry for the novel LOL.

TLDR:

• You sound really good
• Consider using tactile reference for feedback (how the picking feels) versus what you believe is occuring from a mechanical standpoint
• Taking a break from overanalyzing your playing and revisiting it later can allow you to figure out what’s working for you without the added difficulty of overthinking the mechanics - then when you’ve settled into to something that feels good take a closer look and see what (if anything) has changed mechanically

Edit: after scrolling down and reading that you have pain during a certain motion - that can tie into the tactile feedback as well. Obviously avoid the movements that cause pain for the time being and if it persists I’d recommend seeing a professional for a diagnosis.

[qwertygitarr]

Wow! Your playing in these clips both sounds and looks fantastic!

When looking at these two versions though, what jumps out at me is that the three finger grip seem to yield a more straight motion that moves a little bit more vertical to the strings, more towards the guitar body on downstrokes. The normal grip seems to be more parallel to the guitar body and maybe a little bit curved. On the Yngwie sixes it actually almost looks a little bit DSX with helper motion for string changes.

So to me, the 3 fingers vertical motion LOOKS more refined, more reliable and less strenuous. But that of course doesn’t have to be true for you. Go for what feels best. And again, wonderful playing!

[adamprzezdziecki]

@Troy

I’m not totally following what the difference is between these attempts and the earlier attempts that were painful. Is it that the wrist orientation is more ulnar, and it was the radial side of the range of motion that was painful?

cool story bro

@Troy @Philausopher
About the injury thing, since my first RSI (summer 2018 I think) it’s been a cycle of screwing up my hand with wrong movement, recovering a bit, screwing it up again, etc. I’ve had ultrasonography and radiography and they didn’t show anything unusual, my hand was just super tired. This July I’ve even had a really intense therapy with massages and icing (5 days a week for a month) and after picking the guitar up again and trying to USX it went back to being painful. My forearm is a bit sore at the moment but playing with this “new” USX makes it less painful actually, it works like a massage. After fooling around with it a little bit I start feeling that kind of warmth that you get after playing with the right technique.

@qwertygitarr
Hi, thanks! You may be right. As I said before I’m in total flipflop mode now, constantly readjusting, trying different pickgrips, etc. Today I’ve discovered that the more thumb overlap I have on the pick, the more forearm I’m engaging. Few days ago I’ve had a lesson with a student and when teaching her some basic strumming patterns I felt I’m doing something different than my usual movement, while having a break at work I started fooling around and my funky strumming felt totally effortless (I’ve always had a problem with it and tensed after a while). I can even do Guthrie 32nd note strums and gypsy tremolo.

guthrie funk gypsy tremolo

I couldn’t do that before.
When it comes to roll patterns it’s totally random. Sometimes I play really good, sometimes I barely hit anything.

rolls

Ironically it’s not the inside picking string skip from b to d that’s the hard part but outside change from g to d is the most uncomfortable. I’ve managed to play a few way cleaner and smoother takes today but couldn’t replicate them on camera.
TLDR: I’m finally getting it.

[Troy]

Your English is better than most people I know! It’s embarrassing actually.

Thanks for filming! The two arm positions you’re describing, I would describe the first one as a straighter wrist in the flexion/extension axis, with more of an ulnar offset in the deviation axis. It’s similar to the the Andy James and John McLaughlin arm position:

The second position, the one you like better, is more of a flexed wrist orientation with a radial offset. This is closer to Gypsy style and more typical for “DWPS” playing styles. And of course used in funk strumming, when you lift up the anchor, as you demonstrate — great playing.

The body anchor points don’t actually look much lower on the body — comparing the body anchor at :30 seconds with the body anchor at :53 seconds. But yes you are more toward the bridge, so the wrist flex is needed to reach the picking position.

If you’re saying this is not painful, great. Glad you were able to figure that out.

[adamprzezdziecki]

Thanks! Just a quick question about pickslanting/edge picking. Should I try to flatten my pickslant when trying to DBX or just keep my downward pickslant and edge picking? When it comes to DBX 3 finger grip feels the most comfortable for now but I sometimes feel these sticky upstrokes. With 3 finger grip the pick is a little floppy and the harder I press it, the harder I feel them.

[Troy]

Pickslanting is for pick attack, to smooth out any “garage spikes” problems where the pick grabs one pickstroke (either the downstroke or upstroke), harder then the other. The rule is that the pick wants to be 90 degrees to its motion path.

At the bottom of the semicircle, when the pick hits the string, it is basically moving parallel with the strings at that instant in time. So 90 degrees to parallel would be zero degrees pickslant. So… double escape motions don’t require any pickslant.

When we film players this is mainly what we see. Players like Andy Wood and Olli Soikkeli who use supinated setups may appear to have a very slightly “DWPS” orientation compared to players like Molly Tuttle or David Grier, but I think this is mostly irrelevant:

Zero-Degree Pickslanting

But then there are time even Molly Tuttle can appear to have a downward pickslant, because of the way she presses in (hyperextends) her thumb. In the bigger picture, I think these differences are so tiny they don’t matter. Somewhere in the ballpark of zero is probably what you want.

This is the purpose of the middle- or three-finger pick grip. For highly supinated setups, index finger grips almost always produce a downward pickslant. The middle finger grip gets rid of that. In your case, you use way more supination than I do for an index finger grip. If I did that, I would have a downward pickslant and I would be playing a USX-only style like Gypsy jazz. Nothing wrong with that. But I would not be able to do the mixed escape stuff with that setup. So maybe this has to do with differences in finger geometry between your hands and mine.

Either way, if you want do all escapes from a very supinated arm position, middle/three-finger like Steve Morse and Albert Lee, with zero-degrees of pickslant, is usually how that’s done.

[adamprzezdziecki]

Thanks, I’ll just try out different stuff and hopefully work out what’s best for me.

[Troy]

That’s the way it works!