Longevity and wrist motion

[Lunasegno]

Hi guys,

I was just going over some of the DSX stuff and wondering about the anatomical implications of the different wrist motions. To me—based on my lived experience of not necessarily just playing guitar most of my life, but having a body and working various jobs and such—it seems that the wrist deviation axis is a lot less fragile than the extension/flexion axis, both in terms of force and endurance. Anecdotally, if I try doing all four movements in isolation with a bit of resistance (extension, flexion, ulnar deviation, radial deviation) it is extension that fatigues first and also has the least amount of power available. Flexion is fairly robust in this regard but it also seems to be the least utilized in picking on account of how the guitar is oriented to our bodies—in general it’s not dipping into the strings we are obsessing over, but rather, escaping them quickly and cleanly.

I know there are probably some genetic factors to connective tissue durability, but could Steve Morse’s wrist problems be related to his extension-heavy DSX technique? Are other DSX players who stay closer to a pure 9-3 deviation motion are less likely to develop a chronic RSI wrist problem?

Interested on your thoughts and experiences, and if anyone with a background in anatomy, physiology, or physical therapy is around to weigh in that would be especially cool, I’m just a layman speculating out here.

[Drew]

I’m not nearly as qualified as some here to weigh in, but, well, specifically with respect to the basic picking mechanic…

1. There’s a fair amount of personal subjectivity here, and where you hit fatigue faster with one technique than another, others may find the reverse, and
2. If it’s something you can truly do with a high degree of mechanical efficiency - necessary for speed - then this is a direct result of the physiological toll of the motion being very, very small. I.e - if you can play a motion blazing fast, that particular motion is very unlikely to cause pain and degradation over time, precisely because you can do it extremely fast.

[Riffdiculous]

@Lunasegno

could Steve Morse’s wrist problems be related to his extension-heavy DSX technique? Are other DSX players who stay closer to a pure 9-3 deviation motion are less likely to develop a chronic RSI wrist problem?

In Steve’s case, you have decades of touring, using a style that’s almost exclusively alternate picking, to consider. Things may have just worn out no matter what he did.

John McLaughlin is closer to 9-3 and nearly retired due to pain in his hands, though he says he was able to overcome this with mental techniques.

[Tom_Gilroy]

@Lunasegno

To me—based on my lived experience of not necessarily just playing guitar most of my life, but having a body and working various jobs and such—it seems that the wrist deviation axis is a lot less fragile than the extension/flexion axis, both in terms of force and endurance.

The wrist doesn’t really have a deviation axis and a flexion/extension axis. It’s an abstraction.

There are five muscles which pull from their points of origin to their points of insertion. They are not arranged along the “cardinal” directions.

@Lunasegno

Anecdotally, if I try doing all four movements in isolation with a bit of resistance (extension, flexion, ulnar deviation, radial deviation) it is extension that fatigues first and also has the least amount of power available.

These four directions are not principal in any sense, and the movements aren’t adapted to function in isolation.

@Lunasegno

I know there are probably some genetic factors to connective tissue durability, but could Steve Morse’s wrist problems be related to his extension-heavy DSX technique?

It’s impossible to say. It’s a sample size of one with confounding variables.

Steve Morse has lived an active lifestyle and has injured his wrists in other activities. It’s also entirely possible that all picking movements involve some degree of wear and tear, and Steve has probably picked more notes than anybody else.

[BlackInMind]

@Tom_Gilroy

Steve Morse has lived an active lifestyle and has injured his wrists in other activities. It’s also entirely possible that all picking movements involve some degree of wear and tear, and Steve has probably picked more notes than anybody else.

I would also add, anecdotally, that with the number of OG extreme metal bands out there who’s members are in their mid-50s (some even pushing 60) that if that amount of wear and tear were a thing, you’d be seeing their guitarists dropping like flies with RSI’s but the number of prominent guitarists in that genre who were at least public about sustaining those types of injuries is minimal compared to the ones that seem to be having no major problems.

[eric_divers]

Erik rutan with laser eyes . Jpg

[Lunasegno]

I mean, that makes enough sense to me. Usually what’s fast is smooth and what’s smooth is efficient. Also after rewatching that Beato interview, he talks about being forced to change his technique because of a genetic propensity toward arthritis/weak cartilage. So he just got unlucky on that one and maybe millions of reps of a different technique over the latest half century would have just burnt out something else. Sucks, but he is obviously not letting it stop him.

And maybe I’m just biased because because SM’s technique and hand position look impossible and uncomfortable to me as a naturally upward-slanting guy who is probably over-reliant on grip movement when forced to inside-string change.