Thanks for the reply!
So you would suggest that just learning tunes is enough ? I often find myself wondering how people come up with their songs and why the music or the notes they are playing make sense, but not really knowing what to search for.
@Scottulus has some solid recommendations there - I was going to mention Rush. I think those classic era prog bands are probably better to get your start with than more modern stuff.
Aside from learning how to play tunes, make sure you understand them. What are the time signatures, rhythms, what’s going on melodically/harmonically… these are the questions to find answers to. And this is also the kind of thing that is hard to learn entirely on your own.
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Why not find a teacher?
Yes, well I thought of learning to play guitar more of in a scholastic kind of way, learning the music theory, learning the technical side of things and then being able to learn the songs more easily to understand what is going on from the get go, but that doesn’t really seem to work.
I’ll try it out the way you suggest then - learning the tunes and trying to understand them. Maybe after figuring it out on my own will I understand the theory behind it.
@kgk because I figured out from my early days in school and now in University, that studying things by myself feels most naturally to me.
My Problem with learning the guitar is primarily that there is no real “curriculum” I can follow to teach it to myself. If I were to learn a language for example, I would know where to look and most of the information on how to learn a new language is pretty much “learn this, then this and so on and so forth”. There is a clear path to know where you’re standing with learning this new skill, which on guitar is missing.
So to answer the question, I don’t want to look for a teacher because I don’t feel like I need one. In the best case scenario is just want a structured List of things to learn one after the other and I can figure out the rest on my own.
You need a set of skills, you can do it in parallel, or set a day to focus on each area:
- Music theory (you can find lots of online courses about it). Focus on understanding scale formulas, chord/scale relationships, rythm.
- Aural/ear training skills (try to transcribe fragments of songs from bands you like by ear).
- Visualization skills (Learn where are the main notes on the guitar A,B,C,D,E,F,G, also an intervallic view of the notes (Check Tom Quayle’s free lessons about it and if you can I recommend trying his Solo APP).
- Technique (Learn clean technique, CTC is perfect for that, but you can also watch some classic REH videos)
- Composition skills: Write/record ideas you get, they don’t have to be full-fledged songs, sometimes it can only be a melody, a few chords or an interesting rythm.
- Enjoy the process: Don’t get caught up in things like, I need to play like x player or be able to do this in x time. Enjoy every step! If the objective is the process of learning instead of the end result you are set up for sucess!
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Fret 5 7 7 on the bottom three strings, that’s a power chord, now you’re playing metal.
Fret 5 7 9, that’s the prog power chord, you’re now playing progressive metal.
The rest is really extrapolation from there.
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I mean, for me, what it takes to play “progressicve metal” is basically the toolkit and technical ability to play metal - all of which you can learn here, though I don’t know if CtC really gets much into like how and where you palm mute impacts how a “chug” sounds, that kind of thing, but on top of that also getting comfortable playing in and counting in “odd” time signatures, and very likely enough music theory to get comfortable writing and soloing in music that doesn’t stsy firmly planted in the exact same key the whole time.
These are pretty big subjects. I think a teacher could help, but short of that, you might be better off just asking questions as they come up while trying to learn how to play prog songs you like, as well as understand HOW they work as songs.
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Yes that definitely makes sense!
I guess in my head I always thought of taking things step by step and that some day I would be able to come up with my own songs.
Learning the technical side of things is by far the “easiest” in a sense that we’re lucky enough to be having CtC, where you know that you have a destination and what it should look like and how to get there.
Whereas on the musical side (theory, composition, etc.) of things it’s much harder to find such a well structured approach to progress and have a clear path to take.
I know getting a good teacher is invaluable and he might get someone that structure to be the best they can be in the most effective and efficient way possible, but I just know for a fact about myself, that no matter the teacher - I am so much better off without a teacher and being accountable for myself, again, as long as I get the information on what I should learn, I’m gonna try to the best of my abilities to learn it.
But what you said totally makes sense, and I think I will try what you and Arnadius suggest and ask questions on this Forum or another whenever I get stuck! This really resonates much more with me and I think that way, the information (especially Theory) will stick a lot better rather than learning everything word for word so to speak. I’m a really big fan of really understanding what I learn and on the flipside I really struggle when something doesn’t make sense but I just have to take it if that makes any sense!
Thank you for the Reply!
Honestly, there’s a TON of good theory instruction out there. It’s definitely easier if you can read standard notation than if you can’t, though if there’s a genre of metal where being able toread a score might help, this is it, haha. But a intro-to-theory college textbook, and maybe a jazz fake book (look for the “The Real Book” series, tucked under another shelf, and looking deceptively hand-bound and bootlegged, at a good music shop) to get some hands on exposure to modulation and maybe a few songwriting ideas… I think quality theory instruction is a lot easier to find than quality metal guitar technique instruction, personally.
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Well you make a very good point and I’ll be sure to check out the book(s) if I’ll be able to find it here in Germany.
Otherwise I think I might save up a little and try to work out the books one after the other!
I would really like to immerse myself into music and learn as much as I can, so you saying that quality theory is actually easier to find makes me glad!
EDIT: Well I’ve found some good resources on where to get the Real Book series pretty much free but it’s really tough to read haha - I suppose that I really have to learn to read standard notation!
EDIT 2: @Drew Do you happen to know any good Intro to Music Theory books? I’ve found one called “Music Theory for the 21st-Century Classroom by Robert Hutchinson” this is the link. There is also a PDF version that I downloaded but wanted to ask if you know anything about it and if it would be worth it to go through that book!
I can’t speak to that one personally, but scanning the outline, it looks pretty thorough.
Theory can at times get (or at least seem) kinda dry, but understanding the building blocks of music and what makes things sound good together can become an incredibly powerful toolkit while writing. Anyone who says they don’t want to learn theory because “they don’t want to be limited by rules” hasn’t really done more than scratch the surface.
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Yes, I totally agree! I‘d love to some day feel that I at least know enough theory to understand what I’m doing or what I‘m trying to do!
Thank you very much for your recommendations!
Plini is cool. Do you own a strandberg yet, hahaha?
Prog and it’s offshoots and fusions is probably my favorite musical genre and the one I’ve listened to most.
Listening to the masters and innovators is probably the best and by listening learn the riffs figure out what they are using for intervals and chords. Alex Lifeson is a favorite of mine as he uses very extended chords for hard rock/metal. Chris DeGarmo is another for using very unique chord voicings.
Classic Prog
Rush
Pink Floyd
Genesis (Steve Hackett was very ahead of the time, doing tapping before Van Halen popularized it and sharing space with a lot of keys)
King Crimson (the way Fripp modulates the riff in the mirrors part of “21st Century Schizoid Man”)
OG prog metal
Queensryche EP through Operation: Mindcrime
Crimson Glory’s first two albums
Fates Warning from Guardians through Parallels
Watchtower (Ron Jarzombek is insane, might be the only metal guitarist heavily influenced by post second Viennese school classical music)
Voivod Killing Technology to present
(piggy’s riff style with lots of dissonant chords with tritones is very worth listening to).
Extreme metal
Coroner (imagine if someone fused Rush and Megadeth)
Believer
Cynic Focus (this one might be the singular biggest influence on modern progressive metal. It was simply 25 years ahead of its time)
Death from Human onward
Opeth especially the 90s and early 2000s albums (I prefer the stuff up to Still Life when there was a tinge of black metal influence in the mix)
Edge of Sanity especially their album Crimson
Pestilence Spheres and Testimony of the Ancients
Enslaved from Isa onwards (like a fusion of black metal with Pink Floyd esque elements)
Modern “shreddy” prog
Shadow Gallery Tyranny is a literally perfect album (lots of Malmsteenisms in the guitar work)
Symphony X (“Sea of Lies” tapping section says it all Michael Romeo is a monster)
Dream Theater (I am not the biggest DT fan but I respect Petrucci a whole lot and Images and Words is always a good time)
Epica (more symphonic but lots of prog elements to the songwriting and structures, full concept albums and multi album song concept theme pieces)
Mastodon from Leviathan to Crack the Skye
Nevermore
Theocracy (“I Am” is a phenomenal track)
Obscura (they really ride the borders of tech and prog death metal)
Necrophagist (I debated this one but the song structures landed it here especially the classical quotations in “Only Ash Remains”)
Steven Wilson (especially the albums with Guthrie Govan on guitar “Drive Home” brought me to my knees the first time I heard it)
Alt prog (don’t really know how to classify these)
Tool (Adam Jones is a great study with doing a lot with a little and permuting a singular riff idea in different voicings and modulations)
Katatonia (around Dead End Kings they started to incorporate the type of prog elements that Tool has into their stew of gothic doom metal, Opeth fans will want to check out Brave Murder Day where Mikael Akerfeldt handled vocal duties)
Anathema (another band that started off doom metal and went prog with a very ambient almost shoegaze atmospheric sound on their last few albums)
Muse all albums up to The Resistance (if Radiohead had more Queen influence and went full in on some of the prog elements Black Holes & Revelations is a very good album)
The Mars Volta (Omar is amazing lots of dissonant chords choices and his use of effects to create moods and atmospheres is second to none, their debut is probably the best post 70s prog rock album full stop it’s like 70s Santana and King Crimson had a baby in a punk squat house)
I forgot a big one
X Japan (I’ve often sold them as imagine if Use Your Illusion era GNR or early Queen was a power metal band) Art of Life is simply a masterpiece and it beat the Dutch and Finnish bands to the symphonic metal table by about 5 years.
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Great list. I’d just add Martyr to either of the “Extreme/shreddy prog” sections. They’re defunct but Voivod’s current guitarist (Dan Mongrain) was in the band and that man is a monster with a very cool sense of melody.
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Will check them out for sure! Though my style is more Plini, Intervals and Moray Pringle! But Thanks for the sugesstion!
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I‘m so sorry I didn’t see that you commented !
Somehow I only saw Eric’s reply !
Yes buying a Strandberg is most definitely on my to do list haha
I just told myself that I would put some money aside each month and if I really stick to playing consistently for two years then I will get one !
Otherwise thank you very much for all this information !!! I’ll be sure to checkt them all out, since I haven’t heard of most of them!
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One of the things I really like about Chewy is his playing on the new Voivod albums respectfully adds touches of the late Piggy’s style into the mix. Target Earth is such a good album.
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A more general piece of (unsolicited) advice on this:
Prog music these days, much like 5th edition D&D and “modern metal,” suffers greatly from being too self-referential. If you want to make cool prog, listen to and learn lines from other genres. You’ll be much cooler for it. 
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Or just find one of Robert Fripp’s semi rants on “what went wrong in prog” prog was supposed to be stretching the boundaries but like all things it became a formulaic style. Hence KC throwing new wave elements in the mix in 80s was progressive as well as the industrial elements in the 90s
In this way a band like Polyphia is the most prog with all their disparate electronica influences and have gained recognition far outside of their niche for it. Celtic Frost was a similar band that for their time had many disparate elements, no one would call them “prog” but what they were doing in the 80s was very progressive especially on Into the Pandemonium where they could almost be said to have inadvertantly started to invent symphonic metal.
In the modern era I think the Japanese metal bands get closest to this ethos of not being afraid of taking very non metal elements into metal. Marty Friedman has talked about this in interviews and how hearing X Japan in the 90s reinvigorated his love of rock music.
Prog metal to me has always been the most delicate of genres to walk the line of as the metal crowd will turn on a band quickly if they subsume too many non metal elements. See Cynic getting anything that wasn’t nailed down in venues hurled at them while opening for Cannibal Corpse in the 90s and then being absolutely moved that people knew every word to every song when they reformed in the 00s. Queensryche from the mid 90s to the 2010s is a good example of this as well although it was probably impossible for a Seattle band to not see the success of grunge and want some of the bread.
Now I think people care less about “metal cred” in the modern age as scenes proper don’t really exist in the Internet age. The success of bands like Deafheaven kind of prove this as well as the rediscovery of a band with very disparate elements like Deftones by the younger generation. Sure the haters are gonna hate but no one cares about them and their forum circle jerks.
Early prog metal was basically dudes that like Iron Maiden but also really like Yes, Rush, King Crimson. But is that really “progressive” like 40 years after it’s been done?
Tl;Dr if you want to be the “most prog” listen to everything and throw bits that you like into the mix.
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