Looks like I'm (no longer) elbowing

Technique Critique
#1

Hello! New old guy checking in. I’ve “played” off and on for roughly 38 years but gotten back into it in the last two years. Mostly metal rhythm, but trying to branch out some to leads. I’ve struggled mightily with plateauing my progress. I’ve had two different teachers for lessons in those years but still haven’t “cracked the code” of fast alternate picking. The video on string hopping really resonated with me as I had literally just had the conversation with my wife that the problem I keep running into when attempting to go faster when skipping strings is I start making a hopping motion. And, I’ll be, I get “stalled” at around 110-120 bpm 16th notes.

I’ve very much been trying to get a wrist motion going but even when I try the “trying out the movements” things on the table I don’t get much above 160bpm except the EVH movement. I may try to play with that more as I have gotten something infrequently working in the past, at least with single-string alternate chugs.

Why am I so wrapped up in wrist motion? I guess I’ve always heard that elbow motion is bad! Avoid it at all costs! “It causes tension, it’s harder to control, it’s limiting, it’s tiring…” etc, etc, etc. CTC is the first source that I’ve seen that’s like “hey, if elbow is you, embrace it.” Which is, frankly, refreshing.

My elbow seems like I could develop it. I’m including a video below, but I realize the black pick, black-ish guitar, and iffy lighting make it difficult to see the angles here. I’ll have to find a way to get more insight into it. I feel like I’m DSX since on extension on downstrokes I don’t appear to hit the next string but I can’t say for certain that I don’t cheat.

I literally just joined and paid yesterday so I’m still digging through the vast amount of content. It’s a bit overwhelming but I guess that’s a good problem to have. I’ll have to find a reasonable path for us elbow movement cretins and see where it takes me. Maybe if I can hone that other things will come someday.

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#2

Yep, it looks like elbow motion to me too. We are on the same boat.
If you can do it being reasonably relaxed then it’s really nice DSX form.
I wouldn’t treat that motion so harshly, after all the fastest of the fastest shredders use it (Rusty Cooley, Jason Richardson and probably a lot more “super shredders”). It also works for Vinnie Moore and Zakk Wylde - who both are amazing players.
You should also check out @gabrielthorn for more elbow action on the forum, he really went far with it too.

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#3

All good, Elbow’s no joke! I found that instead of wasting my time trying to “start from scratch” I got much, much better results from just running with what I can do and changing around the note arrangements of stuff if I got tangled!

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#4

Good to hear you made progress on this. I’m an elbow picker too and I’ve never heard anything but bad about using the elbow before I joined the forum this year. Even famous players who are using it a lot are not aware of it.

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#5

I remember reading a lot of stuff from some players saying you shouldn’t use your elbow, before I joined here too.
Since joining CTC, I’ve noticed that some of the fastest players use elbow motion. I’ve only tried it a little, but noticed that it actually feels relatively easy to get it going. Might experiment with it a little more and see how it goes!

#6

Tons of negativity around “elbowing”. I gave up on trying to change - I just want to play and there’s just not enough hours in the day as it is. I do mess around with other motions and try new stuff out though, mostly poking around hoping for a happy accident that enables me to add to what I already do. That’s just me, though.

#7

I’m gonna self-report as someone that advocates against the use of elbow, but that’s solely based on my experience with RSI / tendinosis, which I’m sure was exacerbated by lifestyle choices (lots of elbow stress from climbing).

#8

So. It’s been a hot minute. I’d love to say I’ve spent that entire time making fabulous progress on my picking and playing but, you know.

That said, I’m no longer an elbow guy. Over the course of those 3 years a DSX wrist motion has appeared on the scene. I’ve always struggled with string-hopping and still do. It’s a conscious effort when playing anything to not return to it and somehow incorporate my “motion”.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GvFVPm2k6E4

I mean, that’s great. It’s vastly more comfortable than the elbow motion. I’m now trying to get more consistent with it, working on making it usable at all speeds, working on finger sync. I’m nowhere near actually changing strings, frankly. But, like this guy had, I touch the strings below the string I’m picking with the flesh of my thumb. Unlike him, I have not found a way to maintain my motion without it, nor can I use my motion on the lowest string (the B on my 7 string)… it goes to crap in a spastic way without the “guidance/barrier” of the lower strings to restrain it. It’s literally the only motion I can find at this point, even my old elbow crap has abandoned me.

Do I continue to work on this motion, get the sync going, work on string changes, develop it? Do I somehow try to find another one? One thing that dumbfounds me is how Troy or anyone is able to collect all these different motions and make them work. Is my body just an idiot?

#9

@coldforged Yeah, your picking in that video looks just like mine. I’ve also found that I can’t do anything other than DSX like how you are. I’m also still struggling. I think that this is just a thing that takes awhile, I don’t think that your body is necessarily an idiot. Besides, Troy’s probably spent YEARS only working on picking. Most of us have things we do besides guitar. Don’t give up, play things you can, I’ll let you know if I figure anything out since we have similar motions.

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#10

What happens if you shift your arm up so that thenar eminence (muscle just below the thumb) rests on the body of the guitar? Does that help you get control over picking the low B? It’s not a perfect solution, but it could help, and then you’d move back to your old position for the other strings.

#11

Your motion is a little inconsistent, at the start of the clip it was more wrist and then towards the end the forearm was becoming more involved, in any case you need to be able to do it comfortably for at least somewhere approaching 30 seconds. With these little bursts it’s hard to tell if the motion is actually efficient or not :slight_smile:

#12

Hmm, one thing I ran into, keep in mind that I SUCK, is that when I would play on the lower two strings, E+A respectively I’d kind of lose my reference/anchor) which was my thumb knuckle very, very gently touching the strings. You know, there are no more lower strings to use as a guide, so I found I would sort of use the guitar body BUT - that was a good 1/2inch drop and created a bit of confusion in the 'ole picking hand. I tried resting on the body and just sort of reaching all 6 strings; doable but I didn’t like the sound plus it seemed to invite some tension as I stretched to get the B+E strings. I tried working on shifting back and forth, y’know - just get used to the “drop” on the Low E+A strings but that was kind of a grind and invited some weird pauses in my music that I didn’t like.

Ultimately, I decided to change the “reference” to the other side of my hand, which is where I am at now; ie -how supinated can I get and still retain my DSX? I was VERY pronated. And of course, for every initial “new benefit” there will be some things to sort out. All good, I was practicing anyways.

Probably not helpful, but I thought I’d share! Good luck!

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#13

I’ve tried to move everything all around including what I believe you’re referring to but am unable to find something in that same general area that keeps the motion going in a non spastic way. I can sometimes find something that is quite different: way more supinated, kind of reverse dart thrower, and very unpredictable. Unable to tell whether it’s still even DSX as it’s more DPS yet still feels like it arcs upward, though it’s admittedly irregular. I’ll poke into the anchor more, thanks for the input.

#14

Unsurprising I guess. I’m still feeling this out. As I try to increase speed the tension still goes up and I activate more of my arm than just wrist. Something to work on. I’m working on maintaining its consistency as I extend the “burst” length, and can keep it going for more than these bursts. No clue if it’s particularly efficient but it’s certainly the most efficient thing I have in my limited arsenal at this point. Thanks for your input.

#15

Thanks for this. Yeah, I’ve tried what feels like endlessly to find something better than this. My own more pronated thing has its own limitations: I don’t feel like I have control of it below the “twitch” speed range, so I can find something at perhaps 140bpm but 100 is totally absent. It’s only “available” starting with a downstroke… with the pick angle I can’t find a way to begin a phrase with an upstroke. And I have to hunt for it every time. It isn’t at my fingers every time, like I’ll miss the upstrokes until I dial it in.

The journey continues!

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