Magnet shots, 3 string roll, not sure what to make of it

Technique Critique
#1

When the package finally came, my wife said “I don’t think I’ve ever seen you this happy.”

Anyway, I know this was filmed and cut a little “different” but I think the movements are still there and visible. Pardon the bloody finger.

Clip is normal speed then slow, I think 3 or 4%

These are basic 3 string rolls. It feels relatively comfortable at this tempo, and when I push tempo I either feel tense or the pick comes out of my grip, or both.

I might be rusty on my terminology and anatomy, but I think I see…

  • wrist extension escape after downstrokes
  • wrist flexion escape after upstrokes + some arm turning . maybe sometimes some extension after upstrokes too
  • I can’t make up my mind about fingers in vs extended, and I’m aware of this while playing
  • I think my body gets confused about escape-path movements vs string-tracking movements. and my eyes also get mixed up when watching the footage.
  • in the clip I was trying pretty hard to not move my forearm but I may have a bit.

Interestingly, clips I tried that had more multiple-note-per-string stuff were way hoppier. like my most ‘hoppy’ was when I was just alternate picking on a single string, from this position.

Open to any input or comments…thanks in advance!

#2

Hi @JakeEstner,

There are points in the video where it looks like you aren’t stringhopping, and there are points in the video where you definitely are.

Since the extension on your downstroke is consistent and more pronounced than the extension on upstrokes, I think you should try to supinate a little more and aim for a 902 or RDT+rotation blend.

I think you can solve this just by experimenting a little with the contact point your hand makes with the guitar. A little less centered and closer to the psisiform bone of your palm could help.

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#3

Thanks so much Tom! Could you link me/refresh memory on “RDT+rotation blend”?

#4

Troy had a webinar on crosspicking from wrist and forearm, but I can’t find a link to it.

It’s essentially the same as what I discuss in this video:

I might have some time on Monday to make a short video for you.

#5

THIS is the one I know for sure I cannot do. I have had success with the 9 0 2 and the 10 0 3. In both of them though, I don’t try to make a curved motion. I try to just pick sort of “flat”.

A forward roll took me longer to get than arpeggios with adjacent strings. It naturally followed after getting that down just because I was more used to the motion at that point.

My advice is to spend time trying to find something that works and feels easy as opposed to upping the tempo on something that “sort of works sometimes”

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#6

That’s the one, thanks @joebegly!

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#7

Awesome thanks, and thanks @joebegly for the link. I did watch all those a few years ago, with a bit more hands o n practice to the 902 stuff. @Tom_Gilroy I will check out the video you posted as well, really appreciate it.

I think where I wound up ‘landing’ with the DBX stuff is there didn’t ever seem to be any combo of movements that both felt smooth and that I could also play fast even if inaccurate.

I eventually hit a wall with my tinkering, but, not to mix metaphors, the tempo ‘ceiling’ of that wall was much higher than it had been previously, so I at least was happy to be playing a lot of stuff I couldn’t play before.

Excited to have the magnet and get under the hood again and see if I can push things further.

Thanks Joe. I would say I’ve covered a LOT of ground in terms of different types of material (arguably exhaustive, as I’ve made various randomizer tools and exercise generators that are pretty intense) and to date I haven’t found anything that’s 1nps based that feels easy to alternate pick. One way escape stuff is mostly pretty easy. Even somewhat frequent change of escape paths (like 3nps strings, or primarily USX stuff with the occasional DSX note) can work out ok and feel easy, but a lot of that stuff is in a context where a little swiping is either not that noticeable, or acceptable to my ears for the context/genre.

Forum/critique wise, think it would be useful to post magnet shots of any of the ‘easy’ stuff to give clues wrt problem solving the original clip?

#8

Yes, please. I think this would be valuable, often people find something “difficult” because they are continually trying to revert back to some familiar or comfortable form.

#9

cool, cool.

2nps ascending and descending:

3nps descending, but I guess only one downstroke escape ‘mid-stream’ in the figure i arbitrarily chose. looks pretty bluntly like forearm rotation to get that barely-escaped downstroke?

#10

I probably shouldn’t have used the word “easy”. Maybe I should have said “non-fatigue-inducing” or something. Plus, it’s all very relative. I can get above string hopping thresholds (16ths @ 120 - 140) and I’d consider that feeling pretty easy. It starts to feel challenging when I get much above that though. Someone else further along than me (Andy Wood, just to pick a random name :slight_smile: ) might say 16ths at 160bpm feels easy. Bump it up to 180…he might say it’s not so easy anymore.

#11

These are all reverse dart-thrower with forearm rotation from a more supinated position.

You’re really not far at all from having something which will function.

#12

edit: actually I see my description is wrong - ignore comment.

@Tom_Gilroy re your description, In this, would DBX-heavy material be doable with wrist extension for downstroke escapes, and forearm rotation for upstroke escapes?

If the answer is “you’d understand the answer better by (re)watching the linked videos” that’s fine :slight_smile: - just taking a chance on it being a simple “yep” or “no, gotta have something else to make the upstroke escapes”

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#13

@joebegly gotcha - so, for whatever it’s worth, USX stuff has felt pretty fast and easy for more or less as long as I can remember, and i guess I’m thinking of fast as 16ths 150-175 or something, depending on the figure.

But things like 1nps-based alt arpeggio figures were much more hoppy up until maybe two years ago - previously they would feel tense at maybe 90-100 if looped for more than a few measures. I think after an initial run with the stuff that CTC had available at the time (2020) on the subject , the 100-110 started to feel doable for longer periods of time, and I’d more so flub up or stop rather than tense up. I think that has inched up over the past few years, but I wouldn’t say I’ve been putting consistent effort or practice to it, not tracking tempos on the same figures.

But I think the figure posted in the original vid does feel fairly easy at around 100 in a long loop. And basically the faster it goes, the duration I can do it gets reduced.

For whatever it’s worth (and this is more so for anybody reading along who feels a bit demoralized about slow progress w DBX things) one of the best advantages of working on this stuff is that for for more ‘normal’ material (as opposed to specifically 1nps-based arpeggio figures) I don’t as often have that issue where there’s like one note in a measure that I just can’t play. Often my clever re-fingerings for USX would hit walls or be super awkward. I can’t play Tumeni Notes or burn through Beaumont Rag, but definitely have way more options for playing a much wider variety of things than I did a couple years ago.

#14

Totally doable, just requires some adjustment in positioning.

If you’d like I can put together a short lesson video for you on Monday.

#15

If it’s something you’d enjoy doing, and you don’t feel put out, sure, that’d be great! But no pressure and if slips your mind/other things come up, no worries.

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#16

It’s no problem, I’ll have some time.

#17

Video for you @JakeEstner. I hope you find it helpful.

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#18

It’s a cool video Tom. I’ve seen you explain this in the video you posted a few messages back.

I have a feeling I could do this motion pretty easily. A couple years ago, I started working on a (pure) forearm rotational movement and I had some “trouble” with the wrist doing some moderate flex/ext. It was causing my USX attempts to be trapped at times, as I’m sure you can imagine. There was just enough extension to fight upstroke escape I would have otherwise gotten from the forearm rotation. I was able to get rid of that (flex/ext) part of the motion and achieve my rotational USX goal (at least I think…I’d better make a new Joe’s USX magnet thread). Just miming the motion in the air, I can get that little twist along with the flex/ext without issues. So I think maybe it’s just a matter of me getting the right amount of ‘flat’ setup to allow that naturally curved motion to escape in both directions to unlock this DBX capable mechanic. I’ve definitely never mounted from the pisiform.

Who else have we seen that has a mechanic like this? I’m never great at identifying visual cues but there’s something about this that reminds me of the motion:

That hard attack immediately makes me think of Anton Oparin, but his motion doesn’t look rotational to me, other than when he does inside changes with string skips. Also, out of curiosity, did you ever try introducing some edge picking to soften the attack?

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#19

Cool, I’d be happy to give feedback if you show me some magnet footage of your attempts.

For me, this feels like a key detail in the setup.

I think there’s a lot of similarity here, but I’d really need to see better footage of Paul’s hand to be totally sure. There are differences in the setup (Paul’s forearm is at a more vertical angle than mine, for one), but I think the core movement is the same.

I think a rotational component is present in Anton’s form, but less deliberate than in mine. The RDT antagonist muscles have secondary function in rotation and to eliminate rotation completely would require tension. Obviously, Anton isn’t tense, so I can only imagine there is some incidental rotation, but he might not be recruiting the primary pronator/supinator groups.

I have. I used to use this form with a very pronounced thumb bump and a lot of leading edge picking (first video), but since the picking movement isn’t purely perpendicular to the string (there is some component of the movement along the length of the string), it results in a scratchy tone, which isn’t ideal for me. Also, a flexed thumb can put torque on the index finger, which I’d like to avoid as much as possible.

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#20

Thanks for the detailed response, Tom! I always appreciate your insight!

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