Minimum DBX speed to avoid string hopping

Hi peeps,
I wanted to created a picking etude that primarily focuses on injecting 1nps ideas and it turned out that it has the potential to become somewhat of a piece in itself (much to my surprise seeing as I haven’t composed anything for about 10 years!).

The piece is 160bpm and the main parts that involve 1nps are 8th note triplets. If played well, is this remotely fast enough to largely rule out string hopping? A feeling in my bones makes me think no… but I know I could never have played it years ago pre-ctc.

I can maintain it for a minutes at a time of constant triplets without much fatigue at all and it does include some wide jumps and 5/6 string arpeggios. I can potentially go faster, but its not right for the tune in some ways.

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I am curious - I’d like to try it :smiley:

I think speeds like 120-130bpms 16th notes can be brute-forced with inefficient movements, at least in principle. I certainly can’t do that though! even at 120 if I do jumpy movements I get exhausted quickly.

I’m the same. 120 is pretty much my limit with string hopping, and at that speed I tire out very quickly.

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Thanks for the reply @tommo and @MyAudioDNA.
So, at my slightly slower tempo equivalent of around 110bpm 16ths - good endurance and relaxation is the only real clue that stringhopping is not happening.

Well first of all, 160bpm eighth note triplets is actually equivalent to 120bpm sixteenths, so you’re already in the ballpark.

Second, I would recommend upping the speed. Right now you’re in the range where inefficiency is still possible. Maybe not for long periods of time, but definitely still possible. I think Troy has said he is able to get string hopping all the way up to ~150bpm sixteenths on a good day (though I don’t remember for sure). I’d start around 130bpm sixteenths (~175bpm eighth note triplets) minimum. If you really want to go for it, which I (and I think @tommo would agree) would highly recommend, bump the speed up to around 160bpm sixteenths (~215bpm eighth note triplets). This is about as fast as I’ve seen people use DBX practically. DBX certainly can go faster than this, but it seems like 150-160bpm sixteenths is about the point where even the fastest DBX players do away with the majority of their DBX playing and switch to a single escape motion.

At those speeds, just let it be sloppy and make sure the motion is smooth and fast. Once you find a motion that is smooth and fast, start to slow it down a little at a time while bringing that smooth and fast feeling down with you. If it ever starts to feel tense, choppy, hard to keep up or even just not right somehow, stop and jump back up to warp speed to get that smooth and fast feeling back. Rinse and repeat.

For a slightly different approach, @Troy has recommended multiple times that you don’t use a metronome at all for this part of the journey. Just play fast and smooth and worry about the metronome once you have a motion that is fast, smooth and repeatable from practice session to practice session. Once you know what the motion is supposed to feel like, then you can start worrying about the metronome.

Hope that helps!

There is only one answer to this question: The speed at which you no longer see any stringhopping! It’s not a math question, it’s based on your hands-on testing. You keep trying to play the phrase at faster speeds until you start making motions that look and feel efficient. This isn’t always going to happen at a specific tempo number, and trying to find it on a metronome isn’t usually all that productive (for me). It also isn’t going to happen at the same speed for every phrase you play, nor the same speed every person. You’re just trying to lead yourself to play more efficiently for whatever the phrase is, until you trick yourself out of whatever bad habit you are choosing at slower speeds.

Also, I’d add that being super focused on the tempo is missing the point a little, because what you’re really looking for is a feeling of easyness where there is no tension due to inefficient motion. That’s more about noticing when it happens, and not so much about trying to brute force a bad motion to go faster. That will only lead to more tension, not less. So there is an experimentation to this, which is more important than specifically how fast you go.

Thanks @MyAudioDNA for the detailed reply.

I can on the whole play it faster than the 160bpm, but as a tune it starts sounding a bit silly the faster I go lol.

What I’m trying to gauge is whether this will tune has any technical merit as far as DBX maintenance at that speed, but I think @troy has nailed it with this point -

And this

I’ve duped myself into thinking that one piece could be the holy grail of dbx :rofl:
And I’m trying to serve 2 masters - the etude and the musical piece - probably a bad combo.

but a bit less ambitiously I think it’s a super good idea to come up with musical pieces for the techniques you want to learn. I’ll be looking forward to your etude if you want to share it!

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I have a question: Let’s say that you dialed your metronome way down to 100bps and played your picking etude. Would you expect the pick motion to be basically identical to the fast version, except slower? So, at the low speed, would you expect that each stroke would be a clear USX or DSX or whatever? Therefore, shouldn’t it be the case that you will see no string hopping even if you played it at 60bpm?

I know that there is a lot of confusion on this board about why some people bump the metronome up by 1bpm, and numerous statements that high-speed and low-speed picking look different (for the same piece), but it seems to me that for the CtC practitioner the picking should look the same at every speed, as all of the mysteries are gone, and once the pick motion is planned, it’s a done deal.

Does that make any sense? :rofl:

I can only tell you what we see. And what we see when we film people is that slow playing doesn’t look like fast playing. The differences vary depending on the joints involved, and they type of motion that joint is creating.

When I filmed musical examples for our Volcano seminar, I used a forearm-wrist technique. We did them at medium and fast speeds, and the medium speeds look very different. The motion path for the medium speed clips follows a more vertical angled trajectory, while the faster clips are closer to parallel with the strings. The slower playing also has pauses in it, where the pick comes to almost a complete stop after each pickstroke and waits before playing the next one. In the faster clips, the pick almost never stops moving.

Players like Andy Wood, Molly Tuttle, and David Grier are double escape players, mostly with wrist motion. When they play slower, they also experience the velocity change, where the pick waits or slows down between pickstrokes. The shape of the motion path also becomes more vertical, like in my Volcano examples. However with double escape this makes the motion look more like stringhopping. The slow technique of these players is probably not the same level of efficiency as their faster playing.

It is very difficult to try to simulate fast motions when playing slowly. It is difficult to move very slowly with continuous motion, and it’s very difficult to use motions with very shallow escape that just barely clear the strings. That kind of playing is much easier to do when playing fast.

To learn to do fast technique, you have to play fast.

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Thank you for a fascinating response, and what you say is obviously true. But should the choice of DSX, USX, or double-escape be the same at every speed? In other words, if I take a piece of sheet music and transcribe it to guitar, and then annotate it for DSX, USX, etc., should I always do that? I suspect the answer is “yes,” although the details might change?

When Andy wood plays faster lines, he uses a complicated mixture of motions — different wrist motions, and sometimes a little forearm. If you wanted to “annotate” that kind of playing for a particular technique, I’m not sure how you would do that. If I were teaching Andy style technique, I would show the anchor position and generally how to do wrist motions from that anchor position. A lot of it after that would have to be done by feel, especially for lines that mix one, two, and three note fingerings.

All I’m saying is, try not to overthink things. Some styles, like a Gypsy guitar line, it’s easier to say, ok, there is one picking motion that you use for this. Other styles are more about form and proceeding by feel, because the lines don’t use just one picking motion, and a person generally can’t think their way consciously through stuff like that.