More monkeying with notation: d, D, u, and U

General Music Discussion
#1

I was thinking about notation again, as good notation makes it easier to express things. How about the following?

  • d = downstroke → trapped (a downstroke that is trapped at the end)
  • u = upstroke → trapped (an upstroke that is trapped at the end)
  • D = downstroke → free (a downstroke that is escaped/free at the end)
  • U = upstroke → free (an upstroke that is escaped/free at the end)

So,

  • DBX looks like this: DUDUDUD, with no lower case letters.
  • Sweeping is a bunch of lower case letters in a row, e.g., dddd, or uuuu.
  • USX looks roughly like dUdUdU.
  • DSX looks roughly like DuDuDu.

Not just that, I can explain how I would play a scale starting with 2 notes on the first string, 3 on the second, and 3 on the third: dU duD udu. This is neat, because I do some thing that are strange, but it’s easy to notate, a good sign.

I think one can express everything with these four letters? (I’m not sure.) And there is an interesting rule of thumb:

  • For alternate picking: the last note on a string has to be D or U.
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#2

I like it because it’s a bit pared down from your previous systems, but I am still not sure that it’s necessary. Some thoughts:

-If simple down and up pickstrokes are notated, is it not obvious which forms should be used for a given note?

-High level players (to include instructors here) frequently aren’t doing what they think they’re doing (using trapped picking plus swiping when they believe they’re using DSX, for instance). This erodes the utility of highly-detailed pick directions.

-There is more than one way to get a free stroke.

-Di Meola-style crosspicking would be notated with multiple trapped strokes in the same direction, but would not be sweep-picking.

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#3

Yes, my prior attempts at notation were too confused/heavy… I think this latest attempt is a lot closer to something that might actually be useful.

So I think the up/down is not obvious. I’ll give you an example. Let’s say a string has 3 notes on it, and one starts on a downstroke, and it leaves escaped. It could be:

  • DuD (DSX)
  • DUD (DBX)
  • dUD (is this classical 2WPS?)
  • duD (what I do, keeping the pick trapped)

I think that all of these are actual options. So, instead of lots of English, if it is possible to just write them down, that would be best… but does this suffice? I’m not sure… :thinking:

You are right that what people think is often not what they’re doing, but it’s still important to be able to notate what they think, or whatever it is that they’re talking about. Notation ideally enables accurate description, but it’s on the user for correctness.

UPDATE: Regarding Al DiMeola, you explained in another (unrelated) thread what he does with his strokes, and this can easily be notated, EXACTLY as you did, e.g., his “sweeping” is DD or UU, as distinct from dd or uu. So, if I understand, the notation works with him.

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#4

Sure, but the reader will likely not be able to do all of those “ways” - the really important pickstroke is the final one, if they can’t do that they can’t really play the line. I’d also argue that any way which uses consecutive escaped pickstrokes is inherently slower than one without, and shouldn’t be used for this exact situation, but that’s a different conversation.

I suppose if you yourself were trying to notate something you did, so you would remember it later, maybe it would be fine for that purpose? But wouldn’t it be simpler to just lay out ground rules first [Attention: this piece was played with all trapped picking, excepting where escaped notes were necessary, which were accomplished with minor forearm rotation]?

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#5

For example, 5 notes/string:

  • dUdUD (classic 2WPS)
  • duduD (what I currently do)
  • dUdUt (is this YJM? [where I just wrote “t” for HO/PO, I’m not sure of the letter])
  • dUdtU (or is this YJM?)

And there are so many other options. I have no idea what’s faster or slower, but it’s important to try to talk about things in a dense but easy-to-understand way. Does such notation exist? I don’t know, but I’m always on the lookout for it.

Yes they should layout their rules! But as you observed, most people won’t do what they said, and this likely changes on a measure-by-measure basis throughout the song. I don’t think that people need to adhere to just one set of tricks… that’s another reason why general-purpose notation can be useful.

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#6

Guiltyyyyy! Not of being “high level”, just the part where I can easily not do what I think I am doing :slight_smile:

That’s why we just keep filming ourselves.

But I think the notation @kgk came up with is very cool to succintly communicate the intention of the player / the ideal combination of escapes and trapped strokes for a given technique.

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#7

I think that finding the notation isn’t very hard compared to getting people to actually use it… that will be the tough part! Indeed, it will likely be the case that nobody will use it, and that would be a shame, particularly here.

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#8

Oh boy…this thread is right up my alley. All that is said here are things that I’ve considered in my own transcriptions…and my engraver and I ultimately just go with straight up D’s and U’s as text notations in pdf AFTER he’s entered everything in Guitar Pro.

I just had a conversation with him as we are completing yet another of my Van Halen transcriptions about whether we should abandon D’s and U’s under the staves entirely and go with the traditional Downstroke and Upstroke standard notation symbols. I literally tried that with a piece for one of my students and the guy said “What are those? Launch codes?” :crazy_face: Crikey! In my quest to “idiot proof” my transcriptions, I’ve found that it is better to go with “D” and “U” lettering…

But all that is to say I LOVE that someone is even more of a lunatic than me and has gone further to try to create a system to notate pick angle and pick trapping and escaping! My tin foil hat is off to you! :flushed:

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#9

IMHO, CtC in one sentence: “there are two types of downstrokes (to trapped, or to free), and two types of upstrokes.” From this, nearly everything else can be derived.

EVERYONE ignores this key learning and uses notation that cannot distinguish them. This is a trivial problem to solve (du vs. DU) and yet we mix the two together and try to endlessly blab in English to try to suggest what one really meant. I don’t get it.

#10

I think notating pick angle is only worth notating if there is compelling video evidence that the performer was consistently and verifiably using those exact pick angles EVERY time they execute the piece or the lick. I know Van Halen’s climbing sextuplets were always done with a Downward pickslant, so that is worth notating. But I use actual words and lines above such a phrase…I might say “Use Downward pickslanting” and “………” indicating the duration of the instruction above the staff.

One thing to consider is the “density” of the special instructions in your transcription…too many of them can make it difficult to read. I know that’s a consideration for me since I always include lett hand fingerings and picking directions and many other special instructions in text throughout my transcriptions.

#11

So if you don’t know if it is a downstroke or upstroke, you don’t need to say anything. If it is USX (what you call DWPS), then you can likely use Ud. If it is DSX, then you can likely use uD. For DBX, UD. So either zero or one characters, not a lot. If you know it’s a downstroke but want to be fuzzy about if it is d or D, then just use the downstroke notation in TAB (as it doesn’t say).

What am I missing? :thinking:

But your TABs sound exquisitely detailed, and that’s great.

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#12

I work specifically on Van Halen most of the time, though I’ll occasionally transcribe something else on spec or pieces by other artists that I like. Almost none of those really have pickslant that is intrinsic to making them function…EVH’s “climbing sixes” being an exception that I mentioned. I totally recommend DWPS for those. But I think that since I don’t transcribe “shredder” music per se, I’d likely never have a need to include those abbreviations. I try to keep the symbols to those that are already generally accepted and known to avoid confusion.

If you are making something for the shredders, I can totally see why the system you’ve invented would come in handy though.

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#13

True, except for the rule that alternate picking “needs” the last stroke on a string to be escaped. But, other than that, you’re right, it’s up to the person’s taste.

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