I am having trouble speeding up my motion with larger pick strokes without adding in elbow movement. With the wrist/forearm motion I can’t play very fast without using super small pick strokes. What should I do?
There’s nothing wrong with adding/mixing-in elbow, as long as it’s not overly stiff.
As far as wrist/forearm not being able to move quickly: try isolating each movement… just so you can kinda see if there is a ‘weak link’ motion. Make sure to stay as relaxed as possible.
I’ve done this with each in every mechanic… just so I know that everything can move as fast as it needs to move.
If you post another video with the added in elbow mechanic it will definitely be easier to help out.
@hamsterman Adding the elbow usually adds a lot of tension. I can play really fast with the forearm/wrist, but the motions are so small as seen above, that it’s useless. I have to increase the size of the pick stroke so it is more consistent and easier to change strings. I will try to isolate the movements I guess. How did you go about adding speed to the wrist only mechanic? That one feels very unnatural to me when I try to speed it up.
I will try to make another video soon.
The elbow can be used in a loose/relaxed way, but if it takes a little bit of learning and adjustment, and it requires that the elbow muscle isn’t ‘keeping up’ your hand from falling down. Here’s a thread on it: Here are a few elbow picking mechanic tips for staying relaxed
But it’s not for everyone.
As far as the wrist mechanic… if you are talking about ‘side to side’/deviation… for me, I can only speed it up if my wrist is completely loose. It just takes a bit of practice… but looseness is everything.
I can’t get much speed with a “9-3” wrist movement at all. When the Steve Morse CTC interview inspired me to try to get some wrist-based crosspicking going, it become clear to me how much better my wrist-oriented picking got with a flexion/extension component. My best results for single-escaped (downstroke escaped) wrist-oriented picking is with what the CTC clockface analogy would describe as roughly an “8-2” movement, or perhaps even a “7-1” movement.
That’s interesting. I’ve had similar experiences, and I agree that flexion/extension movement seems much easier. I haven’t had much luck with wrist-only though.
I think that’s what MAB was referring to when he said that our wrists aren’t made to move side to side. Literally they can move side to side but I think what he was getting at is moving strictly “9-3” feels unnatural and hinders speed.
Just something I noticed in your clips fairly consistently, which is almost certainly affecting your hand sync- your left hand fingers come really high off the strings, and how much varies quite a bit too.
Try doing some legato runs with your left hand, go as slow and lightly as you can to find the MINIMUM amount of space and effort to get a note to sound with hammers and pull offs. Pay very close attention to making things even and smooth and watch how far your fingers are above the strings. Also have a finger target relative to the fret which remains consistent.
Do just a single string at first, then work on gradually adding in string changes.
Give it the same attention you’ve been giving your picking and your sync issues should be much improved in no time.
Keep up the great work!
Here’s a clip with the elbow added.
I have been trying to get my forearm rotation working better for a little while now and when reading a post yesterday I realized I may have been going down the wrong path. For my super fast playing I was adding elbow, or so I thought. I don’t remember what I was reading, but I saw @Troy say that basically elbow couldn’t really be used for downward pickslanting (which is what I do) and that when he does it, it is likely some forearm thing. This got me thinking and when I actually looked at what was going on when I did the hyperspeed picking (which for me maxes out at around 270-280) there wasn’t really elbow happening that I could see. Now the real revelation from this will be how is forearm rotation “supposed” to feel. When I do the super fast thing, in my mind I was adding elbow because that’s what it felt like, but I think it was just because I was tensing up in order to execute it. I think. This felt different than what I have been trying to do which is get forearm/wrist going without any “elbow” added. It feels sort of awkward and it’s hard for me to speed up most of the time with it. I can, but I am not sure if I was adding in some of the fast picking element unconsciously. When I do this movement slow it feels like I am sort of flinging my wrist and arm a little. I am not sure if that is the right description, but I think it fits. My question is mainly what do you feel @Troy when you are doing your standard forearm rotation technique? I know you said you don’t think of it as a rotational mechanic, but I don’t know exactly what that means I guess. I included a video of what I am doing. I have close ups and slow mo too if that would be helpful. All of the playing is done with the fast technique I use, even the slower parts. What I will say is that by doing this the slower stuff feels pretty easy. I need to refine it because I am not used to doing it reasonable tempos that I am actually likely to use which is obvious in the video.
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I am not an expert on hyperpicking, but a lot of hyper-pickers say they have a forearm component, and from what I see, lot of hyper or near-hyper pickers use a combo of elbow & forearm. I would just say to try and stay relaxed when doing it, otherwise, it will limit your precision & endurance, and may even cause injuries.
The elbow can be used with both DWPS & UWPS. But what I think Troy might have been saying is that hyperpickers are more commonly UWPS.
I do think that doing short hyper-picking ‘bursts’ can absolutely be beneficial for learning how to play at moderately fast speeds. But I would just say that doing tiny ‘micro-picking’, hasn’t helped me. When I do super-short tremolo bursts at about 250ish, I try to really keep my pick-strokes as large as possible. Then, when I go down to a moderate speed of 160ish or whatever, it feels a bit more solid & reliable.
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I try to make bigger movements at all times since I have a tendency to make really small ones and it gives me issues.
I completely understand, I used to be a mini-picker as well, and it really made picking complex patterns nearly-impossible. I remember watching people picking across strings and basically thinking it was impossible for me.
To break out of it, I really had to experiment with all sorts of different mechanics & combinations of mechanics. It was not an easy fix.
dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Small, efficient strokes have their place for sure
Do you use forearm rotation?
Yeah, quite a bit.
One neat thing that can be done with the forearm mechanic to get a lot more ‘travel’ with the pick, is the ‘MAB’ approach. Basically, your wrist is more elevated, so the rotation of the forearm has a longer ‘radius’, hence a longer/quicker motion for the same amount of rotation. It’s not for everyone, and it makes muting tough, but it’s something to possibly try.
Here is a clip of my arm and grip setup. And attempting to maintain forearm rotation properly. Tracking is still not consistent.
I think I just need to apply myself and work in 10-15 minute chunks of time. Getting the motion to work with a rest stroke sized pick stroke while staying relaxed.