New approach to UPWS and DWPS, but how is this different than cross picking?

Thanks to Troy’s insight and other people at this forum I have come slowly into my own approach to alternate picking recently and it seems to be extremely helpful for me.

Basically, I figured out that my most natural slant is UWPS. So I try to make that my default.

To give an example, if I’m using spiders starting on a down on every new string: I’ll play the first 3 notes with UWPS, then the last note as I hit it, I’ll change to DWPS. When I then go to the next string, I’ll repeat the process.

What this means in reality is, at faster speeds, it’s an insanely quick move from the last note of the string to the following string. Which means as I hit the last note of the string I am using DWPS, and when I hit the first note of the next string it’s back to UWPS. From what I understand, Michael Batio and Andy Wood use this same technique. Please correct me if I’m wrong?

Here’s are the main 2 questions :

  1. In reality, the motion to get from one string to the next with this approach, there is a little bit of a curved motion. Resulting in what I understand to be similar or exactly the same as cross picking. Am I wrong about this?

Please explain how the movement should look like moving from one string to the next using this approach that I use.

  1. Correct me if I’m wrong, but at the end of the day, the key to all this slanting stuff, forearm rotation, etc, is to have the pick escape the strings efficiently and not get caught or blocked. That’s really the name of the game and the number one rule here! is that correct to say?

Thanks so much for the help! This forum is amazing :slight_smile:

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(I’m assuming the spider is something like frets 5,6,7,8 on a each string).
I don’t think that it is possible with pure alternate picking to start each string with a down stroke with UWPS. The way I see it (ascending) is:
E string D,U,D,U rotate to DWPS.
Continue with D,U,D,U with DWPS (no need to switch back to UWPS.
After ascending, it depends on how you transfer to decending pattern. If you decide to slide up a fret with youur pinky and go down (frets 9,8,7,6 on each string) then you can remain in DWPS.

If you want to do it all in UWPS then start on an Upstroke on each string. As a preferred upward pick slanter you may find it a lot easier (assuming you are comfortable starting on an upstroke)

Doe it help at all?

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I should have probably elaborated a bit to say that you do not need to switch slants much as there are an even number of notes on each string Odd numbers of notes on a string will require more switching of slants…

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Well not sure if my post was confusing, but one of the things I was trying to Imply was that my default slant is uwps. Which is basically my main question…I think if you read my whole post again with that in mind it will be more clear.

I’m pretty dense… bear with me.

Re question 1. There is rotation, but crosspicking is a bit of a different beast, where the path of the pick is curved and the slant can be somewhat secondary. For example, the crosspicking movement could still escape the strings on a downstroke with a downward pickslant. I have not delved into crosspicking, so I would advise going through CTC stuff and the forum posts. Hopefully other members will chime in here…

I agree with point 2…

As for UWPS being your default or ‘primary’ pickslant, I have wondered about how ‘quickly’ to return to the primary pickslant, myself. From forum posts, it seems that the transition from one slant to another is usually done when when switching strings. Although you would need to switch slants quickly when only playing one note on a string (for example on Paul Gilberts famous lick), Im not sure what there is to gain in switching instantly back to your primary pickslant as soon as possible - especially when the notes are whizzing by. I suppose it depends on how you develop your chunking.

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It’s confusing stuff to me too haha, so we can bear with each other.

Regarding question 1. So what you’re saying is that cross picking is more about the curved motion than the slant…meaning if you’re playing a down on the 4th string and then to the 3rd string, it doesn’t matter at all whether the slant is up or down, as long as the curved smiley face motion is there?

In regards to what I have been doing with spiders picking DUDU on the 4th string (just to keep the example simple), on the last note of that string I will change to a DWPS. Then on the first note 3rd string QUICKY switch back to my default UWPS. This way I can escape from nailing against the 5th string on my last pick as I understand it.
The 2 questions that come from this are:

A. Is that completely cool to do this, do a lot of UWPS preferred players do this?

B. The motion I make to get from the last note on the 4th string to the first note on the 3rd string using DWPS to UWPS seems pretty damn curvy to me. This is different than cross picking?

Maybe some other more experienced players can jump in here too :slight_smile:

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Basically you do not HAVE to change your pickslant to crosspick. That’s the difference. You can if you’re using a rotational crosspicking method, but for example look at the one Troy put up of how to perform the movement with a lightly supinated position. You maintain the downward slant the whole time.

I understand that. But what happens in this specific case of changing the last note of spiders to DWPS (from UWPS) on the 4th string and then back to UWPS on the first note of the 3rd string?
Because my preference is to play UWPS as much as possible, this is what I have been practicing. And it seems in result there is a bit of a curvy motion happening with the slant changes from string to string. So that’s why I’m asking is that cross picking or is it just a quick slant change that happens to be look too curvy and I somehow need to fix this?

I think there will be a curve as you rotate the pickslant, but with 2WPS the idea is to play the other notes with straight line mechanic. IMO, in order to nail 2WPS, you need to be proficient and comfortable with both pickslants, even if you have a preference. I urge you to be careful about making decisions based on the spider pattern. Is this a pattern that you are likely to use in real life? I suspect not. If for example, you are a predominantly a 3NPS player, with UWPS you can ascend 6 notes with no switch in pickslant. Would that be a more valuable chunk as a staring point?

It would be good if you posted a video for feedback so that we can see what is going on.

This is what we call the “primary pickslant” approach. It’s a classic method for two-way pickslanting as it’s basically a temporary change that affects these two notes, and then the player resumes their default stance.

It’s usually upward pickslanters that do this, as you’ve pointed out, and we’d call that the “primary up” approach. But you can also think of Teemu Mäntysaari, or perhaps even me on occasion, as primary-down pickslanters. But the primary-up players like Batio, , Vinnie Moore, and John McLaughlin are the ones we’ve looked at most closely in Antigravity. Andy Wood is a great example of a primary up player we’ve filmed who has a totally textbook motion for this.

There are some other threads about this:

As to the difference between crosspicking and two-way pickslanting, that’s a semantic question. Same movements, different combinations. You can think of two-way pickslanting as picking style that uses occasional fully-escaped (i.e. curved to the strings) picking motions as connectors inside sequences of singly-escaped (i.e. linear to the strings) movements. You can think of crosspicking as a playing style where the player makes fully-escaped movements all the time, instead of some of the time.

There are lots of ways to make the movements - they can be wrist, arm, etc. But they come in these two flavors of escape, and you can mix and match them in any style you wish.

Why is it usually upward pickslanters? What do downward pickslanters usually do? Only switch pickslant when absolutely required? (Changing strings).

Nobody knows! But one thing you will notice is that lots of dwps players use it almost exclusively - metal players like Marty Friedman, Zakk Wylde, and Yngwie, the Gypsy players like Django, and so on. For whatever reason, it is “good enough” all by itself, especially in combination with sweeping and pulloffs as we have looked at. For whatever reason, those players don’t feel the need to change their arm position to build a complete (to them) vocabulary. And that tells you something important: any one of these techniques is enough to blow people off the stage if you get good at them, even one-way pickslanting.

Damn it Troy, you are meant to know everything! :wink:
I am working on 2WPS (choosing primary down) and have been chunking ascending and descending 6s. I have not been reverting back to my primary pickslant at the earliest opportunity, instead I have been only been changing when required. Question 1: Is this the reason I find the famous Paul Gilbert lick so challenging and would you suggest changing the chunk?
Question 2: I chose primary down as I thought it would be easier to transfer from my rock rhythm playing. I did however feel that primary up was no more challenging than primary down. Are their any players of note that really don’t seem to have a preference and use both equally? Or use them strategically?

I would just caution not overthinking things. The biggest decisions, ones you have likely already made, are the most important. Have you chosen a pick grip? Have you chosen an arm position, either pronated or supinated? Have you settled on a picking motion? Are you playing smoothly? Getting over the strings in time?

If so, you’ve just eliminatd 95% of the variables. Every decision beneath these big ones gets progressively smaller to the point where you are probably already doing the thing (or not doing the thing) you might be concerned about trying to control. Once the fundamentals are in place, thinking more big picture about smoothness, accuracy, and so on, is probably the best return on investment.

Probably right!

Tremolo with DWPS I can reach 16ths around 200bpm, but UWPS is still needs a little work as it is not as relaxed - I think this is the main source of difficulty with outside picking upstrokes. Sometimes it feels like the breaks are tapped for that note - physically more ‘expensive’. My efforts are now spent on chromatics with UWPS starting on an upstroke to try and free it up a bit to a more natural feeling.

Don’t get me wrong, I have made great progress and can on a good day (slightly on the rare occasion) reach around 170bpm (16ths) for the batio ‘first scale’ or circular licks. I think I hit a plateau and I may be looking to hard for solutions to get to the next one…