New Member, first post, just cant go any faster!

Technique Critique
#1

Hi there

Just joined CtC and really hoping it can give me the insight and guidance to break through my picking issues.

I have been playing for 7 years and working real hard on picking for 2-3 of them. And I just dont seem to be progressing.
I get to about 120/130bpm with 1/8 notes and after that it all just falls apart with missed notes, dead strings, just a mess.
And I can do 110 all day long. This is playing Pentatonic 2NPS workouts.

On single string tremolo stuff, I can just about do 90 bpm with 1/16th notes, at 100 I just cant get the groove and it sounds like morse code.

I have had private lessons, which didnt help much, mainly due to the teachers not being interested in technique, more on how to play the intro to Sweet Child o Mine etc!

I feel I MUST be doing something wrong because I have spent many, many many hours with a metronome running all sorts of exercises from all sorts of sources (Claus Levin course, Desi Serna course, Troy Nelson workout book etc etc)
And nothing gets me past this roadblock.

Here is a couple of videos, Code view and front view, of me doing simple string skipping exercise down an Am Pentatonic

120bpm, close to my limit, and even this aint perfect.

Sp PLEASE, if anybody can shed some light on what I am doing wrong and how to fix it and get me past my current limit, I would be soooo grateful.

Just to be clear, I am not a hi speed shred fan. Respect to those that do it but it aint me. I am looking to be a blue to play major/minor pentatonic, major scale licks and chord tone soloing to pop, americana, country and blues. So If I can get to play Johnny B Goode cleanly (168 BPM, 1/8th and triplets) I would be over the moon!

Thanks in advance
Mark

Video 1 - Code view

Video 2 - Front view

#2

FYI since it’s going to be asked by someone anyway

Can you post the ‘normal’ speed versions of these vids please? Nearly impossible to see what’s going on without a ‘reference’ take to begin with.

2 Likes
#3

OK will do, didnt want to swamp the post with vids.

Will send them up in a moment

Thanks for advising
Mark

#4

Hi! Thanks for posting. Before we get further into scrutinzing technique videos, have you watched the “Testing Your Motions” section in the Pickslanting Primer yet and taken the tests? If so, what are the bpm values you recorded on the different tests?

If you haven’t watched those yet, please do so and tell us what tempos you come up with. This is our absolute best 1-hour education to solving the very common “I can’t play fast” syndrome. With any luck, once you’re done watching that and trying those tests, and also watching the case studies, you’ll know the answer to why you can’t go fast right now.

This would also be valuable feedback for us, to see how helpful these introductory lessons are for someone who is essentially self-teaching. If you get stuck, of course, we’re here to help so don’t worry about that.

Let us know!

#5

In response to the request for the "normal speed’ videos, here they are

Front View - Normal Speed

Code View - Normal Speed

I will work through the ''Testing you Motions" tests and post results next

Thanks for the replies guys!

1 Like
#6

MOTION TESTING RESULTS
(and feedback)

Hi @Troy

Thanks for the msg and suggestions. I am still finding my way around the site so hadn’t got to the relevant section yet. I was enjoying learning all about the history and details of picks! :slight_smile:

So I skipped ahead to the motions chapter and went through all the tests. Here are the results.

Test 1. I hear you knocking
All day long: 200bpm
Bursts; 210bpm
Morse Code: 230bpm

Test 2. Just Like Eddie
All day long: 180 bpm
Bursts: 190 bpm
Morse Code: 200 bpm

Test 3. Car Scratch Fever
All day long: 190bpm
Bursts: 200bpm
Morse code: 210bpm

Test 4: These Arms of Mine
All day long: 200bpm
Bursts: 210bpm
Morse code: 220bpm

Test 5: Flick of the Wrist
All day long: 130bpm
Bursts: 140bpm
Morse code: 150bpm
I found this movement very difficult. It kept dissolving into more of a tapping down with the hand motion, rather than a twisting of the wrist. Feels very strange to me.

Test 6: Beginners Tremolo
OMG! It all seemed to be going so well until I put the guitar in my hand!
I feel like I have zero control/coordination as soon as I get near 200BPM with only 1/8 notes! I cant even get close with 16ths. I just dont get it. All the test on the desk seem to do so well and seemed in-line with the kind of numbers Troy is citing in the testing videos. Slower than Troy of course but I guess most of us are :wink:

After 7 years of playing and 2 long hard years of really pushing AP exercises from all sorts of sources, this is quite saddening actually. I feel I must have been doing something fundamentally wrong all that time and so it feels like I have wasted 2 years of technique practice time :frowning:

Thankfully it feels like CtC may be the way to unlock the answer. I sure hope so. If not, based on the test results, maybe I should sell the guitar and become a professional Door Knocker! :slight_smile:

Anyway, enough whining (sorry about that), here is my ‘Beginners Tremolo’ video. (hangs head in shame).

Thank you so much for taking the time to help with this.
All the best
Mark

Video 1 - Beginner Tremolo Test - Code View - SloMo

Video 2 - Beginner Tremolo Test - Code View - Normal Speed

Video 3 - Beginner Tremolo Test - Front View - Normal Speed

2 Likes
#7

This is great information, thanks for doing all this. With the motion you’re using in the clips, are you specifically attempting to do a particular motion, or is this just the motion that happens when you try to go fast without thinking?

Generally, the motion looks good. I’m always a little suspicious when I see smaller motions because I feel like the player may be intentionally trying to do something to make it look that way. Is that the case here, are you intentionally trying to use a smaller picking motion? Or is this again just what happens when you try to go fast? If it’s just what happens then I’m less concerned. But if you are intentionally trying to make a motion where the pick stays as close to the string as possible, don’t do that, we don’t care what size the motion is. Just try to go fast, and put as much oomph into as you can. Are these clips as powerful and fast as you can go, or are these trying to be small and controlled?

The bigger picture is that this is a 2:00 motion, so it’s the Di Meola / scratch-off motion. And there is motion flip flopping, like in Kim’s case study. You can see this even in the normal speed code view clip, where the pick changes the path of its motion at various points, sometimes even missing the string. This becomes more clear in the slow motion attempt. There are stretches where it performs a consistent 2:00, diagonal, DSX motion, again just like in Kim’s video. And when this happens, it sounds and looks very nice. 200bpm and smooth is about as fast as I personally play. For reference, this is 200bpm, and I can’t really go much faster than this while playing anything musical or complicated:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKNCqsdHBAe/

These “pockets of correctness”, where the pick moves smoothly along the DSX path, are when the motion is working properly. I would guess that these moments are also when it feels smoothest but that’s more a question for you. Is that the case, and can you feel when these moments are happening versus not happening? The goal is to have more of the pockets and less of the flip flopping over time, by learning to recognize the feel of it.

All of that aside, can you do any other motions? What about elbow, your fastest motion in the tests? Have you tried that on a guitar and is it any smoother or faster? What about middle or three-finger pick grip like the EVH motion, just for the hell of it?

All in all this is a great first stab at understanding what is working and not working. Experiment and test relentlessly, and don’t spend huge time on things which aren’t working.

#8

FYI, the fastest parts of these clips, both the wide view and the closeup, are about 195bpm sixteenths. And that’s with a ton of flip flopping between different motions going on. So you’re there, you just need to settle on one motion and be smooth. You’ll probably gain bpm when you do as well, but that’s less important (to me) than just being able to fire up the motion smoothly for a length of musically useful time.

#9

Hey @Troy !

Thanks so much for the great reply, so appreciated…

In answer to the various points you raised.

  1. I am not deliberately trying to make the movements small although maybe subconsciously as I have had ‘keep your movements small and close’ drummed into to me for many years by various people who I have tried to get this resolved with. Especially the fretting hand.
    I think I probably am actively trying to stay close to the string on each stroke, again to keep the ‘return journey’ as short as possible.

Tomorrow I will do a ‘throw caution to the wind’ run and post that for you to see. Just for giggles.

These clips are me pretty much flat out at the point where it all falls apart and goes out of control (even more than it does in these clips…). So yes, they a re pretty much my max.

  1. Re the 2:00 motion. I kind figured it was from watching your great videos of the various styles.

  2. Re feeling smooth. Well to be honest, that is a tough one. I THINK it is feeling good for fleeting seconds but it feels so generally ‘strained’ to me that it is difficult to tell. A bit like driving a car on a track right on the edge all the time. You never quite feel when you are on the right line. Does that make sense?

Maybe that is partly why I have found it so difficult to ‘know’ what is right and work on just that. To be honest it all feels like it is about to fall apart at any moment! :slight_smile:

  1. Other motions. I did have a brief go with them but they feel so alien to me it is a bit of a mess. Again I will shoot some clips tomorrow and send them up for your expert eye.

  2. Re the speed. (200 bpm at 1/16ths). I am amazed at that. I must be interpreting my movement vs the metronome incorrectly then. I thought I was running about 200 (max) at 1/8 notes, not 1/16, so half what you are saying. Although when I did the ‘Beginners Tremolo Test’ videos I was not using a metronome, just going as fast as I could.

If it is 195 at 1/16 then I am much less concerned …
Again, I am not strictly looking to play fast. But even something like Johnny B Goode requires a fair lick of speed. Its 168bpm with triplet licks. That is best part of 500 NOTES a minute. Something that is currently way beyond me.

BTW, your ‘Testing your Motions’ videos are superb. Just what I was looking for and a real help in understanding the movements involved in the various picking techniques.
One thing I would ask for to make it ‘near perfect’ would be some way (I dont know how) of helping translate the movements to the same movement when the picking hand is ‘in position’ vs just laying on a table top.

For example, the scratch card example is great and I can do the movement pretty comfortably when I have the table to ‘press against’ and help control the movement.
When my arm is bent and in position on the guitar, the hand is kind of ‘floating’ over the strings and I then find I have much less control and coordination in the cyclic motion. Does that make sense.
Not sure what you could do to bring the two scenarios closer together. But maybe offering some advice on how to overcome the way it feels so different? Maybe that is something you do in the detailed movement sections later on. I have not got to that yet.
But overall it is a superb idea and a huge help. Thank you

Thank you so much for your interest and help. I will post a couple more clips tomorrow.

Take care
Mark

#10

Thanks Mark! Yes, if you’re deliberately trying to stay close to the string, that might be the source of some kind of strain and that’s why I suggest not worrying about that. There are indeed players who make small motions, and we don’t totally know why some players do and others don’t. But regardless, when someone does that and is playing fast and smooth then I don’t worry about it. It’s only if the results are not good that I start to think, ok, maybe this is more of an artificial imposition.

So moving forward, yes, an all-out clip where you don’t worry about motion size or tempo markings would be great. You’re looking for speed and easyness / fluidity. Like we talked about in the motion tests, the more things you have to pay attention to, the harder it becomes. We see commonly on here that when players just go for it and stop worrying about what the technique looks like, or trying to be exactly in time with a click source, they get smoother / more natural results. That’s what we’re looking for here.

And try to include elbow attempts along with it if you can as well, just to see what that looks and sounds like. Thanks!