Pepepicks 260bpm tremolo

[PickingApprentice]

Sounds like a plan, but at those tempos fretting is no joke!

[JB_Winnipeg]

Damn dude, that’s smokin’ fast.

[Troy]

Awesome playing! Yes, this is triplets but it’s super smooth and consistent. Since you can obviously do this for a length of time, it’s plenty musically useful.

@lime

Agreed. And as a side note, this is also why I personally think the the table tap test is a really strange benchmark, especially compared to more picking-like motions such as swishing your hand back and forth or rotating your wrist.

You probably haven’t seen the Primer update, which inlcudes a battery of tests, not just the knocking test. The knocking motion is used as a test of raw physiological speed, not guitar-specific speed. If someone is concerned they have physical limits on how fast they can move, we need a simple motion that lots of people know how to do, which can rule out this concern. Flextension tapping works well for this. If you can do this well over 200bpm, there is no longer any worry that a person simply doesn’t have enough fast-twitch capability for guitar playing.

More generally, however, it’s a mistake to assume that the table tapping motion, or something very similar to it, can’t be used for guitar playing. The 250bpm test I filmed recently was specifically designed to get as close to a pure flextension motion as possible, but on a guitar. I may not be making a 12-6 motion, but the motion I’m making is much closer to it than most players use, and the results speak for themselves.

[Pepepicks66]

@Johannes

@Pepepicks66 I’m not sure it’s of any relevance, but the knocking motion is not the same motion you’re using when playing, right? So maybe it should come as no surprise that your tremolo is slower. Just a thought!

You’re definitely right, I just put up a metronome speed and started tapping on the desk to see if I could follow!

@lime

Being able to knock on a door like a fleshy jackhammer doesn’t exactly translate to guitar playing. The motions are completely different.

@lime

One concern I have (and maybe you’ve thought about this too?) is that this particular motion might hinder my adventure into TWPS or double escape motions.

I agree with both of these points in that to make it transfer “perfectly” to the guitar, you would have to change your grip / mechanics as @Troy has done in recent videos. I’m sure if anyone can figure out how to make it work, it’s him! This does touch upon a thought I’ve had recently though: if you found a technique that gives you more speed at the cost of tone or control, would you change? I definitely wouldn’t, and I know of a couple things I can do already that would make me feel noticeably faster, but there’s no reason to as I don’t feel speed is a limiting factor for me.

@PickingApprentice

Yes I did, because you think WTF is this knocking motion? Its wierd and looks like nothing I would do. However, the knocking sensation/motion is so minimal when I do it right, that it feels just like my deviation motion, but better. I can barely see the difference of the two.

I definitely feel some of the same muscles doing the work!

@anon25405869

@Pepepicks66 why don’t you play a simple repeating 4s pattern like a chromatic on one string or something similar? That way we can know for sure if you’re playing straight sixteenth notes. Sounds killer regardless.

This would work pretty well I think! I just didn’t think to do it at the time, just wanted to do the table knock transfer thing lol.

[Troy]

@Pepepicks66

you found a technique that gives you more speed at the cost of tone or control

There is no such thing. Every picking motion can be paired with a grip that makes the attack sound good, and every picking motion can be “controlled”. Meaning, you can set the speed, start and stop after a certain amount of notes, etc.

When you hear people on the forum say they can’t “control” a motion, it’s usually someone who took the tremolo tests and has the keys to the Lamborghini for the first time, so they just don’t know how to drive it. They have never synchronized anything while playing fast so they think their new fast motion can’t be “controlled”. You’re beyond that and don’t have this problem.

[Pepepicks66]

@troy I meant control as in escape mechanics, dynamics, string skipping speed, etc. They can be “controlled” as far as speed and amount of notes like you said, but if you have another technique that you’re capable of doing more intricate passages with (e.g. DBX, crosspicking) which one would you choose?

@Troy

Every picking motion can be paired with a grip that makes the attack sound good,

My only point of contention here is actually your latest videos. You switched to trailing edge picking for your super fast stuff. The sound that leading vs. trailing edge produce is enough for some people to steer clear or gravitate to (another e.g. lol George Benson goes for trailing edge).

[Troy]

If you want to do mondo-speed metal type riffs, the motions get simplified at those speeds to single escape. That doesn’t mean you don’t still have a variety of motions you can choose. I can and have used similar arm position and grip to play all manner of things.

Clean country USX + DBX:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzZH1iHHVrG/

Alternate picked arpeggios:

Steve Morse Lesson: Arpeggio Picking (The Steve Morse Interview, Chapter 6)

And so on. Within broadly what feels like the “same technique” (air quotes), meaning an arm position and grip that feel like they all go together without requiring massive reconfiguration, there are lots of different motions you can make to play whatever you want. The idea that you are locked into only one technique that can only play simpler lines, is not a real restriction anyone is subject to.

Also, I don’t see how leading edge or trailing edge has a specific sound. Different amounts of edge picking can have a sound, but that’s true of all edge picking. And those variables are all under your control. If you don’t like that much edge picking, use less.

[Pepepicks66]

@Troy

Also, I don’t see how leading edge or trailing edge has a specific sound. Different amounts of edge picking can have a sound, but that’s true of all edge picking. And those variables are all under your control. If you don’t like that much edge picking, use less.

The thought process I’ve seen is that if you imagine the pick as a knife blade and you want to cut the string cleanly, trailing edge allows you to hold the pick so that it’s parallel to your picking motion. Hard to describe so here’s a video:

The sound difference is a reduction in the “grating” caused by the pick going “face first” across the winding on the strings. I’m sure zealous George-Bensonites could add more, or those that can find the video of Paul Gilbert talking about his switch from trailing to leading edge.

I really appreciate you engaging with me / us on esoteric discussions such as this. It makes for interesting conversations!

[Troy]

Just because you can hold the pick that way doesn’t mean you have to. There is no single “sound” this produces, and it’s not any kind of limiting factor. You can see in the clips I’ve posted that trailing edge can have any degree of edge picking you want.