Hi!
I use dwps in an Yngwie-fashion. When I play ascending using 3 notes per string it feels as though the pick gets “stuck” when I increase the tempo (in other words, I mess up). I don`t really understand why, because it looks like I maintain the same technique. If anyone has any suggestions as to why this is happening, please let me know. Any feedback is much appreciated.
In the video, the last two repetitions are slowed-down and there my picking falls apart.
Thanks in advance!
In my own playing I get a “stuck pick” sort of feel if my fretting hand is going wrong, even though you’d think it was a picking thing.
Try building it up at that same tempo but in shorter fragments, i.e. repeat 3 notes on the lowest string to 1 on the next a few times, then 3 on the E, 3 on the A and 1 on the D, and so on.
I think you have too tight grip on the pick and dig in a bit too much.
Try a somewhat looser grip and try to hit the strings with only the very tip of the pick with faster picking.
Thanks for the advice! I`ve actually been experimenting with doing just that, and I think Im gonna do it some more.
Thanks for the reply! I know it`s a common suggestion to have a loose grip and hitting the string with the very tip of the pick, however when you see players like Troy and a lot of the gypsy-jazz guys they seem to dig in pretty hard. Also, wouldn’t the pick get stuck even at slower speed if that were the case?
I agree with Prigmnr, it could be a synchronization issue. You can see how it can be a problem if e.g. you reverse the fretting pattern on the string (e.g. instead of fingers 1 2 4 you play 4 2 1 on each string - you might find you feel stuck even more because you are not used to it).
I often find that with ascending economy picking lines, being more aware of the upstrokes instead of focusing on the downstroke can help unstick things.
Thanks you! I`ll try both reversing the fretting pattern and focusing more on the upstrokes.
Even just going back to basics momentarily and picking up and down on a single string could be beneficial. Be aware of the sensations in the picking hand, looking out for a consistent motor-like feel.
I sounds very “zen” but try to allow the desired sensation to present itself on its own, rather than trying to force any particular results. Would you say you are still at the stage of establishing your picking mechanics or if the main focus is speed development? I know I struggled for so many years because I didn’t spend enough time really digging inward and observing and cultivating the extremely subtle sensations in my technique.
Look at about 2:02 in this vid. Although Troy has a strong hit still the very tip of the pick actually hit the strings.
At lower speeds it is not a problem to dig in deep because you have enough time to get out again.
Personaly a looser grip is better to relax overall, but a stronger grip also will work with higher speed, as long as you don’t dig in to deep.
Just my opninion and experience with playing and teaching for about 30 years now.
Thanks for posting! In general nice playing here. I’m not actually seeing any wrong notes when you get “stuck”. It just looks like you’re stopping. Why are you stopping?
One thing you have to consider here is that you are using multiple picking motions. The motion you use for playing on a single string is not the same as the motion you’re using for sweeping. The sweeping motion is itself a couple different motions working together - including your entire arm, which is moving to push the pick through the strings. This functions as a sweeping motion but also a tracking motion, helping to relocate the entire hand to the higher strings.
The arm tracking aspect of what you are doing looks a little awkward to me, and that might be the problem. As others have pointed out, it’s digging in a lot. But upper arm / shoulder movement really isn’t designed for fast picking and I think you might just be getting confused between the picking motion and tracking motion. Maybe that’s why you’re stopping, i.e. when you can no longer do the coordination.
Have you experimented with other picking motions? We have not actually talked much about what motion you should use for sweeping, but we’re working on a little YouTube feature about Frank Gambale where we look more at the motions Franks uses. In general, he is much more of a wrist player. The wrist is used for playing the notes, and also for tracking. The arm itself moves only a little between the low strings and high strings.
In general, a combination of wrist and arm is what most people seem to use for tracking from the low strings to the high strings. I know it might not be as simple as just moving the arm to the new location, but many everyday movements involve multiple joints and feel really natural, even if they are complex to describe technically.
As part of this I would also try experimenting with a wrist deviation picking movement, where this wrist is mostly anchored and only the hand moves. Even if you don’t switch to that movement full-time, it will give you an idea of what other movements feel like, and this type of experience can help you find a way which feels smoother and more natural. Or it may give you a hint about how you can modify what you are currently doing to work better.
Thanks for your reply, Troy!
Having been inspired by your playing (especially in the Yngwie and Eric Johnson seminars) I have tried to master dwps using a forearm rotational picking motion. I was under the impression I was doing just that and that my picking was consistent with the Yngwie and Gypsy-jazz style. In order to maintain the same hand position regardless of what string I`m playing, I tend to move my entire arm (string tracking), the way I figure most gypsy-jazz guitarists do. Does my picking really differ so much from what I thought I was doing?
Many years ago, before I learnt about pick slanting, I used more of a wrist motion to move the pick. However, since I started using dwps together with what I believe was a rotational movement of the forearm, I have finally been able to play things that previously used to be difficult. How am I going to be able to still use dwps and use a wrist motion mechanic? I thought the natural hand movement for dwps “activates” the forearm rotational mechanic, as you explain in the volcano seminar.
Hi! Thanks for the details and sorry for the confusion here. Downward pickslanting doesn’t require forearm movement. Mike Stern and Albert Lee are two good examples of how you can use just the wrist and still have an escaped upstroke. Either way, I think we gave people the wrong impression with that particular Chapter in Volcano so I apologize.
There’s nothing wrong with forearm movement, and you can check out @qwertygitarr’s posts for a great example of what it can look like when you use mostly forearm for dwps. But when I do this, I tend to use a blend of forearm and wrist. Here’s what that looks like:
You’ll notice there is some arm movement, but there is also wrist movement. These two joints working together allow the pick to trace a path which is mostly parallel to the pickups. There is no other way to get this motion path without combining these two joints. It doesn’t really feel like turning the arm, and it doesn’t feel like a pure wrist movement. It’s somewhere in between.
When I do this motion with alternate picking, as in the first few examples, I cannot feel the tracking movement. Meaning, I am not aware of sliding my arm across the strings. That’s how gentle this is. Part of the reason is that the arm does not move the entire way. It only moves about an inch or so — the wrist does the rest of the tracking. So when I’m playing on the top strings, I have slightly more ulnar deviation than on the low strings, where I have more radial deviation. The fact that the tracking movements are blending — arm and wrist — is what makes it feel like I’m not moving very much.
When I do the 3nps sweeping version of this, I am slightly more aware of the tracking motion. But the tracking movement is not involved in the pickstroke. The arm is just “falling” very gently down the strings but not applying any pressure. This is why it feels like the pick is not digging in very hard.
In your case, during the sweeping motion it looks like the arm is pushing more forcefully through the strings, and that’s why I’m saying you might be getting confused between the two movements. If you want to experiment with a different approch, you can try this one, where you make more wrist motion and the arm is less involved. Even if you decide to keep the motion you have, maybe this will give you some understanding of how to use less arm force and not get stuck.
In general, if you want to work on this, I don’t think of the arm turning at all. Instead, I imagine that the picking path is parallel to the pickups, and I just try to move that way. This will naturally create a combination of wrist and arm, since that is the only way to move that way. It doesn’t have to be exactly parallel - but it will be more parallel than pure forearm, and more parallel than pure wrist.
Anyway just some suggestions. Your playing looks and sounds good and I’m sure you can smooth it out a little.
Hi Troy - apologies if this constitutes threadjacking, but I’m having similar problems with DWPS deviation and wondered if you could elaborate on what you mean here. Surely a motion path parallel to the pickups (do you mean straight to the body?) would mean getting trapped between the strings (a “neutral” pickslant)? Or do you mean parallel with regard to the vertical string-tracking motion?
Apologies also if this is an incredibly dim question with an answer which is self-evident to everyone else…
Not at all! That’s why we post these things publicly.
I’m referring to what you would see if you look at the motion from audience perspective, where the guitar body is pointing at you. In other words, not the “down the strings” perspective we film in to see pick escape. From audience perspective, you can’t see pick escape. But you can see the path the pick is tracing against the guitar body as it moves.
From audience, elbow flexion/extension traces a big semicircle, like a windshield wiper. Wrist deviation traces a smaller semicircle.
Pure forearm rotation would look like a diagonal line running from the pickups to the bridge. It would not appear curved because it’s curved in the plane perpendicular to the guitar, i.e. the escape plane, so you can’t see that curvature from audience perspective.
And finally, this movement, the one I’m doing here, would look like an almost straight line tracing the vertical path of the pickups. It’s not perfectly straight, because wrist motion is the dominant motion, so it will have some slight windshield wiper curvature to it. But less than elbow or pure wrist. If we were to view it down the strings, you would see that the upstrokes are escaping. But you can’t see that from audience perspective.
Finally, none of these movements are better than the others. They all work fine. But they all follow a different trajectory. Compound movements like this one are easiest to imagine by their path, because the joint interaction is complicated. More practically, the path is what I’m actually thinking about when I do the movement. If I think about windshield wiper, I get wrist or elbow. If I think about turning, I get forearm. If I think pickups parallel, I get this motion. Or variations on it depending how I orient the arm and hand.
Let me know if that helps.
Wow! A super-quick, super-detailed and super-helpful reply, Troy. I can only assume you are some kind of cyborg.
That does indeed make sense - particular in the context of tracking across two or more strings. Having quickly picked up a guitar, the “parallel to the pickups” concept is already crystallising a bit in my brain. I also thought that the DWPS hand position automatically “triggered” a forearm mechanic, and for the life of me can’t get my head around DPWS deviation (although I’ve watched the Lee and Stern interviews). Will just keep plugging away.
Oh, and I agree - really nice playing from the OP!
You could see it that way, especially if your fingers are out and grazing the body and your wrist is slightly flexed as a result. When you set up that way, you will be more likely to think the picking motion should go parallel to the pickups. Because to go semicircle, your fingers will hit the body otherwise. It’s a very natural thing to do and most people don’t think about it at all. But it is still really the motion path you are, at some level, asking the pick to travel that is involving the arm and the wrist together.
On the flip side if you hold your fingers like Andy Wood or Albert Lee or DiMeola, either curled up or raised, then you can more easily imagine how the hand can perform the windshield wiper without hitting anything. And I think it makes it conceptually easier to make a pure wrist motion with less or no arm involvement.
Again, there is not a better or worse here. All these movements work fine. Just as a lot of people kill themselves trying to do forearm, there’s no need to jump through hoops trying to get just the wrist to move. just knowing what is happening and why can help you feel more natural and smooth.
Thanks everyone for all replies and feedback! I checked out the live discussion on motion mechanics and learned some more about different movements and such. As I am pretty content with the way I currently play (it feels comfortable despite the problems I encounter) I`m gonna see if I can make my playing a bit smoother without changing motion mechanics.