What make of pick is that if you don’t mind me asking? That may be very helpful for me!
Great thanks, Ill order a few now and see how I get on.
Personally I’ve always been wary of the idea of using special gear or items to solve an issue that is likely something to do with technique - at least for practicing. If you’re a performer and need it for some additional comfort on stage that’s a different matter - every little helps, but I think while you’re actually practicing you should go as barebones as possible (which is also why I’ve always tried to resist having a super low action).
However, it’s always incredibly tempting. I discovered ages ago (after watching Troy’s videos so maybe “discovered” is a little misleading) that picking is a heck of a lot easier when I have some positive point on the pick. I think that’s because I find that otherwise upstrokes feel like they’re getting caught. Thing is I think positive point may add a little (and I really mean a little, it’s not much) more resistance on the downstroke - which is totally fine by me, as I think all of us find downstrokes easier and more powerful, so I’d rather have an easy time on the upstroke. But that resistance, while it doesn’t cause me issues with the actual playing of the notes, over time gradually causes my pick to rotate towards negative point, which is where I end up getting sticky upstrokes.
I just came back to all this as I found an old forum thread on here:
(note that in this thread the terms are bridge lean for positive point and neck lean for negative point - if I understand it correctly).
Basically the point of the pick is a useful tool for minimising resistance but I find it hard to maintain consistency with it. However I have noticed that many players readjust their grip incredibly quickly while playing, so I wonder if they’re experiencing the same thing and have decided to just “deal with it” (which is not something I’ve ever been particularly good at accepting - everything must have a consistent solution!).
I do get what you are saying about using special tools to try fix the problem.
Ideally I don’t want to use this type of pick I just cannot find a solution to the problem and it really affects my ability to play the most simple of things.
Perhaps the fact I’m so aware of it is a problem in itself. Maybe if I don’t keep trying to readjust the pick and let it rotate a little or allow the thumb to shift forward if it wants to and only adjust the pick if it’s in danger of coming out of my hand or rotating to the point of not being able to play, maybe I’ll get used to playing with the pick being rotated…? I’m really surprised that there is very little information about this online at all. I can’t be doing anything too wrong with how I hold the pick… As I can see from here people hold in many different ways but regardless of which way you hold it, the strings causing resistance is still going to make the pick move unless you grip it tight enough…
So I’ve been looking into potential fixes for this issue. It seems worse after I play for a while so it’s likely my hands are getting a bit sweaty or oily which makes the problem worse. I really don’t think there is an issue with how I hold the pick as such as I see many people do it in a variety of ways and possibly just get used to readjusting the pick if needed…? This is kind of difficult if the hands get sweaty and the pick is constantly moving just after a few notes.
Anyway, I came across these which might be worth checking out for anyone looking for a solution
I’ve not tried them myself yet. I’m still waiting for my sticky grip guitar picks to arrive but the monster grips might be good because if they work then I can just use the picks I normally use.
I have suffered this for SOOOOOOOOO long. For me the point of the pick wants to rotate to be inline with my trigger finger. I think that is backwards from what you are saying, but no less annoying. I instinctively try to rotate my wrist to match until my index finger actually catches on a string. Arrgh!
This alone probably explains why I’ve been a finger style player most of my life. I hate strumming, and I wish Troy would do a strumming primer. Pretty please? With sugar on top? It’s a thing for a significant number of us.
Ok… So that said, I was looking at the examples of pick grips @Troy posted. I noticed that the one for the gypsy jazz player (sorry, I can’t remember his name), he is holding the pick so that the point is practically inline with his thumb.
It is so radical. I’ve never seen anything like it. But I’m always fighting to keep the pick from rotating in the opposite direction I thought, “what the heck, give it a try.”
There was a dramatic improvement in strumming feel and pick “security”. I play with JazzIII XLs with a fairly sharp point that seems to hate strumming but love lead lines. With the pick aggressively biased towards my thumb the strumming became much smoother and more natural.
Now, like all these mechanical things, it isn’t a silver bullet. I don’t quite know how to pick single lines with the pick in that position. I find myself bringing the point of the pick more perpendicular to my thumb to do lines and then having a blowout when I try to strum. It is a subtle amount of rotation, but enough to start the downward spiral again. I need to figure out how to slightly adjust the orientation of the point of the pick when changing from strumming to individual notes; but with the strumming sorted it feels like a shorter trip to getting the single lines working with this pick orientation.
In any case, I thought I would share. Maybe for some of you who have the opposite problem you may want to try to align the point of the pick so that it is practically inline with your index finger. Even if that seems radical and weird, it’s worth a shot. After all, everything I’m learning on this site about picking seems radical and weird.
I’m all for experimentation but I wouldn’t randomly starting pointing the pick different ways in your grip unless the reasons for doing so actually apply to you. The cases where we know that great players use what I’m calling a “positive” pick point, i.e. toward the fingernail, are the flexed wrist orientation, and also the supinated arm position with a three-finger / middle-finger pick grip. Steve Morse and Albert Lee are great examples of players who use a three-finger grip with a positive point.
In all these cases, what the positive pick point does is helps satisfy the main requirement of smooth pick attack, i.e. that the pick is arrangd 90 degrees to its path of motion. This causes it to hit the strings symmetricaly on the upstroke and downstroke for even, or at least sort of even, sound. Whether or not you choose to do this has to do with the direction you’re trying to move the pick and the arrangement of everything upstream from the pick that also changes its orientation.
If you’ve found that this orientation sometimes produces smooth attack and other times doesn’t product smooth attack, the principal question to ask is what is the direction the pick is moving? Is it the same in both cases or different? If it’s different, than maybe the same pick attack won’t work for both cases.
Thanks @Troy! Clear as mud. 
Seriously, I’m more confused than before. To begin with, “positive” pick point is “toward the fingernail”. Which fingernail? My thumbnail or the nail on my index finger?
Second, are you talking strumming or picking? I thought the images you posted were of strumming. Is “pick attack” a reference to strumming?
Last, I think of “attack” as affecting subtle dynamics and tone in your picking of single lines. I don’t think of it as a concept applicable to strumming. I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. Obviously, you are free to say you are exclusively focussed on pick grip as it relates to picking single notes, or that a pick rotating in your grip is just not something you address. But if you are addressing the tendency of the pick to want to rotate in our hands, I want to make sure I understand your meaning.
That said, there is nothing subtle about the problem I’m having, and apparently others. There seems to be several threads on this topic, so I don’t think I’m alone. Just for the sake of completeness, here are some details of what I’m working with:
The way I hold my pick (or at least I believe this is true --I don’t have a way of really knowing) is resting pretty much directly centered on the last joint of the index finger. The pad of my thumb is directly above the joint. My wrist is slightly supinated and flexed. Slightly, no flamingo pick here. The pick is downward slanted between 35 and 40 degrees and rotated about 30 degrees relative the the fret plane and string travel respectively.
Picking lines, the pick generally stays in place. However, when strumming, the pick tends to rotate in my grip so that the point eventually points in line with my index finger and into my palm. Quickly, as in a just a couple of bars of strumming Gypsy Jazz “le pompe” at tempo. Obviously it is rotating on the downstroke.
This is not a trivial problem. It has plagued me for nearly 40 years of playing. Am I hitting it at too much on edge forcing the point to want to move? Should I be adjusting pick angle on the fly when I switch from picking to strumming? Should I try to introduce Radial Deviation to present a flatter face to the strings? If so, is there video of anyone changing that angle when switching from picking to strumming? Am I not gripping the pick properly? Should I be gripping it in such a way as to resist rotation? Should it be wedged in somehow? Am I pointing it too far towards the wrist or too far away from the wrist? Should I re-train my hand to hold the pick in a clenched fist of fury so it doesn’t move?
I feel like pointing the pick away from my wrist has helped some, but it is very early to tell. Are you saying you don’t recommend trying that?
Again, just trying to understand and solve a problem.
This problem still plagues me.
I’ve noticed when I’m doing all downstrokes, like for metal rhythm, the pick point rotates towards the bridge and continues to rotate until I have to stop and adjust it.
Is it normal that it would rotate in this direction with all downstrokes? I really can’t figure this problem out.
Yep, have the same problem… though I’m not considering it as a problem much. After some time of playing my pick leaning angle changes and the tip point to a head a bit. Usually it finds some position it likes and stops there, and I continue to play with that position.
Just a small addition.
A few years ago I ordered a sample collection that included one of each Jazz III type. I found the MAX GRIP versions were much more difficult to holds securely. My suspicion is that the texturing results in my skin contacting the pick only at the tops of the grooves, and results in lower contact area between my skin and the pick, and thus reducing friction.
Maybe it might be worth trying another version?
I tried the Max Grip jazz III and also the Max Grip standard picks and found they were much harder to keep grip of, ironically. I think it’s the texture and if you sweat at all or hands get oily, that creates a problem.
I’m currently trying out Ibanez sand grip picks, which have a sort of sand paper texture and although I’ve found these great for lead playing, they don’t tend to move on me much, when I’m playing rhythm, in particular all downstrokes, they still rotate. I wouldn’t mind if it were just a little bit of rotation that I could still play with, like when I arpeggiate chords, the picks always rotate to point towards the headstock… I’ve no idea why but I can still play like this. But when it rotates so the tip is pointing towards the bridge I have to stop and adjust the pick.
What does your grip look like? I used to have more problem with the pick moving around in my hand when I held it using the pad of my index finger (together with the thumb). Have you tried using more of the side of the index finger?
I use the side of the index finger, the sort of trigger grip. For lead and some metal rhythms the index finger would be quite curled so it would go straight across the back of the pick horizontally, it’s a little more of a relaxed curl when strumming or arpeggiating chords. I found this gave me the most stability, especially for lead playing. I’ve been experimenting with grips over the last few months and I think this one may suit me best.
I converted to a jazz size pick and thickness years ago and used jazz3 for a while but they always slipped around in my grip, also tested various versions of the jazz3 but to no avail, even tried using thin layer of shoe goo which stopped the slippage but I didn’t like this solution.
I have a light grip and all the Jazz3 I tried are the wrong pick for me… so I stopped fighting them and moved on.
Thru my quest now use the Graph-tech Tusq teardrop picks and for me they do not move at all ever and I really like them for all applications. No mods needed.
I found the Graph-tech Tusq raised logos sits right in the sweet spot of the grip and stays there even if I try different positions. My grip stays relaxed and light and with all the new experimenting I’ve started with CtC I don’t ever have to think about pick slipping or readjusting.
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That’s great you found your solution. I’m still battling this problem. I’ve managed to sort it out for lead playing, I’m not even sure how I did it, well, I am using dunlop tortex picks at the moment and for lead playing it seems to suit me. However, there are other techniques such as simple chord arpeggiation where the pick point automatically goes positive. Now I know that pick point can change based on certain factors, but I believe it’s far more positive than it should be. I’m basically picking with the side of the pick. Also with downstrokes, the pick point goes negative which I end up having to adjust regularly when playing, which means having to stop for a second to do so. Pain in my ass!
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For what it’s worth, I wanted just to check back in to say that I bought a pack of Mojo Grips and they have made a HUGE difference. I hate solving problems with gear, and worse solving them with non-standard gear; but I have to admit that these little rubber sleeve have solved 90% of my pick slipping/dancing out of my hand problem.
Thats great that it’s solved issues for you!
I’m a little hesitant and the only real reason is because I know from the primer, that the pick point can change based on hand positioning and probably some other factors.
For me, for example, when I arpeggiate chords, I have my hand in a different position to lead playing, and in this position, the pick point changes, quite a bit actually. After a lot of trying different picks and different grips, I’ve come to realise it’s most likely due to hand position/wrist orientation. If I were to use a pick that could not slip, like the sticky grips from guitar moose, picking becomes much harder as the down and up strokes don’t feel even or smooth.
So for now, I’m not really focusing on pick point or attempting to change it in any way.