If you’re doing a 3-strings roll with crosspicking the pick would have a curved trajectory in between strings. Not necessarily very pronounced, but somewhat curved anyway.
For outside string change the curve, to me is convex i.e. the pick trajectory goes slightly above the plane of the string. For inside string change it’s the opposite, the curve is concave. At least that’s the way it does for me.
Now the point of that is that I’m struggling with inside string change with string skip (like 2-4) which you find in both Bluegrass forward/backward roll - which are supposed to be ‘basic’. That roll has string skipping alternately with inside / outside string change. For outside, the curve is basically the same as w/o string skip (convex). But I realize that the curve for inside string change with string skipping is more of an hybrid curve, at least to me. There is a ‘convex’ component in it for the purpose of skipping the string in between. I think that peculiar curve is what causes me issue, but I’m not sure.
I’ve watched Molly Tuttle and Andy Wood clips and it seems to me they are doing that hybrid kind of curve as well for that move. But (again) I’m not sure.
Now I understand that you don’t really ‘decide’ for a curve shape. It’s more a byproduct (so to speak) of the move you’re doing in the first place. But I’m curious about this, if that hybrid sort of curve is valid one, or a symptom of an inefficient move.
I totally agree with that byproduct thing.
I have my doubts the curve being an indicator for efficient or inefficient motions, probably most curves can be produced different ways. Imagine the common wrist extension stringopping motion, in the end it produces almost the same curve as Troy’s crosspicking.
My guess for the inside changes (which I struggle with too) is that people have different ways how to string track, for the inside change your overall position goes in the opposite directrion as the pickstroke, for the outside change you can interprete the pickstroke and the tracking as one motion.
Even in relatively easy scenarios in dwps scale playing I’ve problems on accenting the inside change, I hit the string but it’s kindof melted in something bigger and hard to isolate.
There are some players feeling it the other way round and prefer inside changes, my interpretation is that there’s two different traveling motions, with or against the picktroke. We need both of them to crosspick and have personal tendencies which is preferred.
I’m not sure to follow you on this, but I guess it depends how you look at it. Actually to me that would be the opposite : with inside change the pick strikes together with the tracking (as with economy). It almost feels like the pick crashes into the next string in that case which feels little awkward to me (harder to control than with outside change)
I think what you describe is an outside change.
On inside the pick the pick moves to the lower string on a downstroke or to the higher on a down.
So you play low against up or high against down.
Another way to describe it would be that you have to escape the string you just played on inside, and the target string on outside.
Let’s imagine you play an inside change from D to A string, start with a downstroke.
The tip of your pick needs to travel down while hitting the D string, your overall position moves up (probably at the same time) to hit the A string with the upstroke (while escaping the D string).
There’s no risk at all to hit the target string unwanted, you either hit another string or (main problem) the first string twice.
Probably we feel the same thing, the second stroke can feel like a sweep (and for my playing I think that’s the problem).
If you move the pick through the string with your string tracking motion it is basically sweeping.
Post a clip. There’s a lot of theorizing in crosspicking discussions, in actual practice it’s six notes and when done a particular way it has a particular look and feel. The closeup “tabletop” shot in the tutorial video is exactly what this looks like when done the smoothest possible way with (mostly) only wrist movements. Either you’re making that movement, or you’re not. Only the camera will tell! Let’s have a look.
I indicated String Change nbr on the bottom (sc). To me there are 1 outside change followed by 3 consecutive inside change (2,3 and 4), followed by 3 consecutive outside change etc… What causes me issue is change #3 (B to D).
I haven’t practiced that rolls so far (I’m scared of that pattern turnaround, so I play DGBG to get back to the downstroke), so if anything is related to the turnaround, I’ve no clue.
But in this case it seems to me pretty sure that it’s not the inside change causing the problems, it’s probably the string skip. If there’s no problem on the two insides before and the only difference is the distance between the strings, I think that can be assumed.
Is your hand floating or anchored when playing it?
I noticed in my own playing that an anchored hand gets harder on the higher strings, I believe that’s based on slightly changed angles.
So one explanation now’d be that you’re simply not used to that tracking motion (or have to figure it out), that’s kindof theoritical, but imagine an inside change with adjacent strings and you just rotate the pick, then you wouldn’t need a tracking motion at all.
If you have the adjacent changes clean I wouldn’t worry too much, probably it’s just some small modifications then to get to the skip.
EDIT (after watching the video):
This looks good to me, and I think my guess is not too far from the truth.
You seem to use forearm rotation for the inside changes and are problable used to ‘just’ rotate back.
On the string skip you are rotated back 'too early# so you hit the string in between occasionally.
I don’t have an exercise how to practice it, but I’d say you need another version of that where he rotation is held until the next stroke.
I wish I could give you something more constructive.
It’s somewhat anchored … I’d say it loosely pivot from the palm/bridge contact, but it slightly moves. If playing a 4 strings roll my hand would definitely glide more. Like you I find that ‘rolling’ the 3 upper strings is harder, probably for the reason you pointed out.
Otherwise I’m not sure … Problem I have with this pattern is that if I play it faster, or if I sustain it longer, I bump on the D string to skip for the inside change and the whole thing would derail. It’s a consistency issue I have, I can’t play that with confidence. I am much much more comfortable with the 43234 pattern (i.e. without skip).
I really wouldn’t worry too much there.
You already figured out how to do that, without stringskipping (which is a lot on its own).
Now you need another ingredient (or a modification) and get used to it, it’s just normal to be uncomfortable with it in the beginning.
This is a great example because I suspect lot of people may end up doing something like this. It sounds great. I think anyone can hear that, so nice work on the playing. What we’re really asking here is if this is ‘correct’ or not from the perspective of avoiding stringhopping. And I’ll be honest with this type of recipe, which we see quite often, it is still unclear to me how to evaluate what is going on. And it may remain that way until we get better measuring tools. For the mean time, here are my thoughts.
The short story is you are not using as much supination as the wrist-only supinated approach would require. A lot of people set up on the guitar with a (more or less) strings-parallel forearm, and this can lead to problems when you try to avoid stringhopping. This looks like one of those kinds of setups. Now, to be clear, you can have a supinated or pronated setup and still be stringhopping. But if you have a parallel setup, you leave yourself no choice but stringhopping in certain situations.
So first question how does this feel? And can you do this faster? If there is no tension buildup and you can go faster than this with no resistance then those are some pieces of evidence in favor of “this is correct”.
In the interest of experimentation, if you’d like to try something that’s more obviously supinated, take a look at the ascending inside string change in this example - that’s first rep of the roll, middle string to the top string, that goes upstroke downstroke. You see your arm joining the party at that point. If you look at how far the arm turns at that point, and simply use that amount of forearm supination to begin with, then you will be correctly set up for the supinated approach. This is something you can experiment with if you like.
Again, that doesn’t mean that what you’re doing here is wrong. An approach to playing roll patterns where you do some wrist movements and some forearm movements can work just fine. In fact you can do a blend of forearm and wrist on every note and end up with something like Carl Miner or the amazing Olli Soikkeli who we recently met with. Very interesting picking motion on Olli and you’ll see that wrist/forearm blends are quite capable.
The question is whether or not there is any stringhopping here. In other words, are there any pickstrokes where the same movement is repeated from one pickstroke to the next. For example, the outside string skip that goes upstroke-downstroke. Is that upstroke with wrist extension, and then downstroke with wrist extension? Because if so, that’s trouble.
So that’s it. It’s possible you’re doing the supinated approach that I’m doing, but with less supination, causing some forearm to assist on that one particular string change. In which case, no problem, keep doing it! Test by seeing how fast you can go and whether or not there is tension.
OR… you are doing a recipe where some but not all sequences of movements here are inefficient, and that can lead to strain over time - just more slowly. This matters because you can still f**k your arm up trying to drill these types of patterns without realizing you’re doing damage.
Again, I think there is a clear answer here, I would like to know what it is, and this is a great example of why these movements can be hard to understand and correct. Thanks for posting.
I’m not really beginning on that, I did work on that crosspicking stuff a few years ago but rapidly switched to directional picking. Since then I found new interest to work further on crosspicking because directional involves some limitations. But I’m still not very comfortable with starting on an upstroke.
Tomorrow I hope to have some practice time to check a couple of thing that Troy said. It’s interesting…
If you’re referring to the supposed difficulties you are having with the “inside string skip”, I’m not seeing it. That pickstroke actually looks fine. This is why I recommend posting clips whenever possible. The problem you think you’re having might not be the actual problem you’re having, which could be something else entirely.
Again, the question I have here is whether what you are doing is or is not stringhopping. So some experimentation with a more supinated approach could help rule that out. I put up a clip on the original “Two-Minute Tutorial” crosspicking thread with some slow motion, to give you a clearer reference point for what things should look like when they’re working smoothly the next time you film what you’re doing.
Also, does your phone do 120fps? If it does, switch it into that mode. The image becomes a lot more stable and less jello-cam that way.
Woke up early this morning (I’m in Europe) and trying to sort it out. One thing is that a more supinated approach as you say brings me back to a very DWPS kind of motion, which is my regular picking. So it’s like it puts the pick at an angle which is not suitable for back and forth here. I think I did ‘close’ my forearm (less supinated) on purpose here (though unconsciously) to have a flatter pick angle. Does it make sense ?
Thing is you might find interesting : with that position/motion I can ‘wing’ effortlessly a 43234 roll at 135-140 bpm. It’s not good sounding but I can feel no strain in the motion. But the roll with the string skip I CAN’T wing it. Not a strain issue but I completely lose track of the strings if I do. It’s like driving a car on a very bumpy road.
I think this is another ‘post a clip’ type scenario. Both examples if you can. What’s important is that you establish the smoothness of the motion first. The accuracy is secondary.
Also, have you tried the “tabletop” version of this as in the tutorial video? That’s a supinated approach, but with the guitar on your lap. It’s worth doing - it feels different even though the results are similar, so it can possibly give you another way to attack a similar problem.
You’re more than welcome!
It always helps to try understanding things, especially those you don’t do yourself.
Anyways I’d handle my comments with care always, sometimes I’m totally wrong with what I see, but fortunately Troy takes over mostly if things are not totally clear
I gave that roll a try yesterday night, and I experienced something similar.
The roll started to feel strange when speeding up.
What I did then was switching between a pattern I’m comfortable with and then toggled between the patterns (rhytmically weird in the beginning). That produced a roll version that felt fine but was totally sloppy.
So I’m pretty sure for me I change the motion unconsciouly for the roll … not that I notice any difference when palying just the role. I got that to point that I could play the roll alone when just focusing on the lowest string and the switch between the direction, but with the higher strings messed up.
Anyway that might be of help, it’s my usual approach to find a motion, first get a way to get into the right feeling and then tune it to accuracy.
Looking forward for the next clips and Troys comments
Good job on the rolling 3s. I know exactly what you are saying with the inside string skip ‘concave’ issue.
Troy might dissagree with me here… but I think that the key is better isolation between tracking and picking. I know that complete isolation is impossible because of momentum/intertia… but you can try to get closer.
A good way to practice that… is to do a nice tremolo where you are ‘crosspicking’ beyond both outer strings… then go directly into outisde string alternating, then directly into inside string alternating, then back to tremoling. continue doing this… and you ca start adding string skipping. The main thing to focus on, is trying to keep that same form you use in your tremoling throughout the practice. Its a nice warmup as well.
I’m doing that stuff actually, like a tremolo with the pick curve going beyond both adjacent strings. It’s a good thing to get the “feel” I think. Also whatever 4 nps noodling, at moderate speed but widening the pick motion on both side.
** EDIT** here’s another clip, but with different pattern including outside string skip. Something I stole from Andy Wood …
If I go faster (135 and more) what’s happening is that the hand motion shrinks. I guess I can’t get to the frequency required for that tempo and the hand compensates by shortening the motion. And this causes me to barely touch (or miss) the higher string instead of really picking it.
