Picking Grip - revisited

[CARYCHILTON]

So I checked the Pick Grip Poll. It was interesting, but I still have some Q’s on the subtleties. I have used every pick grip style on there. I mainly wrist motion and the picking angle/pad or angle/far knuckle (more curl on bigger pick).

So for my usual Fender Heavy or Tortex. Gripping these, works well with the thumb’s side fairly close to the tip of pick and plenty of curl on the index, helps for control… However, CRAPPY for speed in regards to alt picking patterns several strings… aka cross-picking.

So, since I am new, I started on this primer, learned pop-tart, to tempo and then worked the STERN alt. arpeggio-like, lick on youtube, @Troy posted weeks ago. I found flipping my wrist for the upward pick slant, with my grip ( albeit usually effective) tedious. I was also, at times, trying to go faster, missed reaching the B string ( downstroke) and the G string ( upstroke).

So dug out my Jazz III’s and tried to copy Troy’s picking grip, leaving a generous amount of the tip of the pick. Now, I felt the tip catching that B and G string better… However, for me, alt picking on arpeggios has always the bane of guitar practicing, so I don’t do it much… If I do it, I usually use economy picking. I found myself naturally picking D U on the E and U on the B and U on the G string.

The upward pick slant seems unnatural for my wrist, but it does improve with more tip of the pick exposed.

In general, the grip feels pinched (angle/pad) using a Jazz III, and like it could fall a lot easier, but I can work on that… What I hope Troy can weigh in on, is when doing the Stern lick fast, upon observation, (given he is using an angle/pad grip) - how much curl on the index is there ? How far down towards the tip in the tip of the index finger? Is the tip of the pick facing exactly towards the body of the guitar or is the tip ever slightly pushed forward (toward neck pickup) ? Maybe Troy would be kind enough to post various photos?

[Troy]

Hi Cary. I’m on the road this weekend and not near guitars and picks (thankfully, for five minutes!). I’m not 100% sure I’m following what you’re asking about with respect to ‘curl’, but we do have some photos on the pick grip poll, and between the closeup shots in our videos and the “angle pad” photo in the poll, I think you can glean most of it:

The index finger is mostly straight. It just points down the center of the pick. In the knuckle grips, the the index has to bend avoid hitting the strings. That is not the case here. I don’t sense any type of curving of the index when I play this way.

More importantly, all these grips in the poll appear to work for every type of line you can imagine, and almost no two players we have interviewed use the same one. I have played one-way and two-way pickslanting lines with angle pad and various side / knuckle grips. Mike himself appears to use a side / knuckle arrangement for the arpeggio lick you referenced, and you check out shots of this in some of the analysis chapters for that interview. @Tommo here on the forum posted a very nice take on this recently in his Technique Critique thread, and he appears to use a side / knuckle type grip with bend:

Hi from a Vinnie Moore fanboy

I decided to move here my attempts/comments on the Mike Stern lick, to avoid cluttering the MiM section: I tried to fight my fear of 1nps picking and gave a shot to this lick. I noticed a few things that helped at least in my case. By no means I think I can play it so well that I can go around lecturing, but maybe these observations may help people who use a hand posture similar to mine and/or are at a similar stage of technique development — conversely I would also be happy if anyone noticed s…

Lots of ways to do this. So I would not take anything I personally do as a type of gospel. And plenty of players with hand size similar to mine, like Carl Miner and Andy Wood, hold the pick differently than I do. So I’m not aware of any really strong correlation between hand size and grip either.

Pick grip is challenging precisely because so many of these arrangements seem to work, and trying to control tiny variations feels like micromanaging to me when the bigger problems often lie elsewhere for a lot of people. But that could just be my ignorance speaking.

Down the line, what we’d like to do is try to hammer out all most important the variables and get pictures of them up for reference - like in the grip poll. Even if we’re not telling people “you should do it this way”, we’re at least showing them ways that work. And there are lots.

[CARYCHILTON]

Thanks @Troy !!

First Q: When you back home, could you let know when doing the Stern riff, whether the bottom ridge of your thumb directly on the opposite bottom of your index finger like in the photo ? Or is your index finger lower than the thumb - my guess? I have tried it, and so far, my index finger ( angled and not much curve) wants to go lower than the thumb. That is, because I am keeping my thumb higher up, like your photo, to expose more of the tip of the pick ( or pick-tip).

Second Q: Could you also note (while looking at your thumb) when the tip of the pick is in relation to the thumb and index? ( my photos I sent showed this). I mean, is your index finger straight down the middle or is it (more than likely) slightly curved enough that it ends up on the opposite side of the pick-edge so the tip comes down the middle? My follow up, to this: is the tip coming STRAIGHT down or is it slightly shifted, angling away or towards the thumb???

[Troy]

Hi Cary - I do this both ways. The index a little lower than the thumb, and the index in line with the thumb as in the photo. It’s not super consistent. You are correct that when the index is lower than the thumb, less pick overall is available. It might look like a large amount of pick is exposed from the thumb-side view, but in actuality the total available point is less thanks to the index finger. If you look at the slow motion clips on the site, you really won’t see a huge amount of pick/string contact. It’s really just the bottom portion of it that plucks the string, as it is with most players we film. This is probably why small variations in the index position are possible with similar results.

Also worth mentioning, the amount of thumb sticking out beyond the pick - also not consistent. Sometimes I place the joint on the pick, sometimes the pad. One thing I don’t do is change the grip for specific licks. So there is no difference between the Mike Stern arpeggio lick and any other, for whichever small variation in grip I happen to be using on a given day.

The index finger is straight down the middle of the pick, to the extent that it can be given that my fingers probably aren’t perfectly straight. That aspect of this is pretty consistent. I’m not doing what George Lynch does where the pick appears to be turned at an angle.

[CARYCHILTON]

Thanks Troy! I was actually reading on the forum when I saw that you replied. Since I have only just started here, I will need obviously spend more time watching the videos and learning the abbreviations the members use here better.

I don’t change my grip much either, unless I am shooting for exclusive wrist rotation and or gypsy jazz acoustic playing, then my index is curled ( side knucke, thumb ) for sure. My thumb moves as well, sometimes just due slippage.

I find with DWPS esp on high strings, I seem to be moving the tip forward unconsciously, towards the thumb… what I mean is that the tip isn’t always perfect perpendicular to the strings, but it feels natural at times, so it is what it is.

I try the index finger straight down the middle of the pick! I have never done this, so that is cool!
In the photos I sent via email to you, demonstrate that my index finger, to various degrees, always been pointing on the other side of the pick tip. Where I could look at my hand ( for those who are reading this, and haven’t seen the photos) and the tip would be between the thumb’s edge and the index finger tip, more or less.

[Troy]

In the future, definitely put those pictures here - as they say, they’re worth a thousand words. Trying to describe pick grip especially, quickly becomes a word salad of spatial analogies without something to look at.

Eventually, we’re planning a section of the site that is more reference-oriented, with photos and definitions and so on. It won’t be a substitute for the tutorial type material - just a reference. For something like pick grip, given the ridiculous number of variables, many of them almost too small to see, it’s unclear that we will ever get to the point where it’s like, “do this”, and “don’t do that”. Maybe we will. But maybe there are some broadly true statements that can be made, at least in terms of breaking things down into big categories someone can choose from.

[CARYCHILTON]

Ok so I tried the index finger ( angled) as straight as I could down the middle. My index finger still shows on the side of the pick, but I think you meant the the pressure-portion of the index finger ‘feels’ straight down the middle. It felt light and fast on the tip! I tried it for some swing rhythm ala I’m the One Van Halen, and I had to use some curl, but for scales, it seems promising. I just need time to incorporate it.

[Troy]

The finger sticking out like that is not what I’m doing - the photo above is pretty accurate. The index might descend a little lower on occasion, but it stays more in the middle of the pick.

Again, if this works for you, that’s fine. As long as you’re aware there are options that is what matters. The bigger issues here are the movements that make the clean playing happen.

[Frylock]

Ok so I tried the index finger ( angled) as straight as I could down the middle

FYI, the grip I normally use for DWPS looks pretty similar to your photo. When I try to do crosspicking, I get better results with a grip that looks more like Troy’s picture. I find the “Troy style” grip allows me to tweak things to maintain a more neutral or even “upward” slant, even with a supinated forearm.

[CARYCHILTON]

Ok so, I have been trying the Jazz III XL, which feels much smaller than the Fender Style/ Tortex due to its narrowness. With my index finger (point of pressure) down the middle of the pick with some normal curl. I still find my thumb will not get perfectly perpendicular to the center line of the pick, in fact doesn’t feel natural. So, you can see about 5% slant downwards (in the direct toward thumb-tip).

Also I I have been trying have my index finger not as low, shown on backside photo shown above. This exposes more of the tip and feels less secure, like pinching grip as I describe before. This also helps with speed. I am playing acoustic lately.
If try any speed-practice on the acoustic, with this pinching grip -less secure, more tip, I can reach speeds comparable to on electric if I play quietly. If I am playing fast as I can, with acoustic performance volume, I need still choke up on the tip, to secure it for obvious reasons - also playing harder will inevitably kill some speed, but acoustic steel string isn’t typical a Shredding instrument! hehe

(Keep in mind, this photo above was taken with the intent of trying to get photo from my perspective IF my hand where on the strings (pick around 1st tring) close to the bridge. )

I have included a DWPS photo (above) with the pinching grip as I call it, index down the middle, and i notice with proper DWPS ( palm resting on the bridge and dropped to point where the angle is enough and feels’ right’ as described by Troy that the tip of the pick pronates a little… IOW the tip doesnt face directly into the body or soundhole (acoustic) as I suspected.

I believe this is due the mechanics of the wrist being supinated. While in correct position, last week, I did experiment with trying to keep the tip from angling outward (2-5% toward the neck) but it never felt right in the grip. In fact, I, we, are all able to bring in the tip simply by flexing the wrist ( like a spring) and or flexing the thumb a bit ( shown below) All these grips are taken after playing fast and trying to get a photo of the angle of how its looks from my perspective.

Lastly, below, I show a photo of of the index all with the same feel and technique described, only that I extended my index finger AND flattened out a lot more ( instead of being on side or angled sharply) and notice that the tip pronates outward (faces angular toward the neck) a lot more… This could useful for supinated, EVH trem picking ( I have it done by a few people this way) if not floating wrist/hand above, with middle finger, thumb, reverse pronation angling (facing the bridge) before hand/wrist angling compensates tip toward body ( see any EVH video on him trem picking to understand the weirdness of it, and that is why IMO, YMMV).

[Frylock]

All these grips are taken after playing fast and trying to get a photo of the angle of how its looks from my perspective.

Photo 4 of 5 is very similar to what I use for DWPS. I maybe have the pick about 5mm closer to the thumb joint, give or take. I find it works with the curled index finger as shown here, and also works with the curled index finger crossing the midline of the pick further and sticking out from behind the pick a little as in the photo in your earlier post.

I definitely don’t think it’s necessary for the midline of the thumb to be perpendicular to the midline of the pick, at least not for DWPS with this “hooked thumb” grip.

And when I do Michael Angelo Batio inspired UWPS technique, the midline of the pick comes within maybe 30 degress of being parallel with the midline of the thumb, though that’s a whole different ball of wax.